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Last night I was hungry and dark. I put cereal in my mouth and bit into the body of a white maggot.
I spit out its dying body and ran to the bathroom. I rinsed with mouthwash and more maggots, reeling from the antiseptic, erupted and wriggled onto my tongue. Examining myself in the mirror, I saw that maggots had burrowed inside the roof of my mouth, the fleshy areas near my tonsils, the sides of my throat. I would spit them into the sink; sometimes I could taste them—squishy and bitter when I accidentally bit down.
Later, I woke from sleep with a sick fullness in my stomach and a squirming in my throat. Deaf and unable to breathe, I ran to the bathroom and from my mouth, I pulled their smooth white bodies: white and wormy, they had grown in size while I slept. I pulled them from my ears and from my nose; I knew that I could breathe again because I could hear that I was breathing. But when I looked at the roof of my mouth in the mirror, I saw more bloody black lumps where maggots were growing, laying their eggs—some were dying inside of me.
I went to the desert to let them wither. I thought that when they dried out and shriveled, I could scrape them out of me like raisins, the larger ones like prunes. But soon I wanted only to drink—the dry air parched my throat and the maggots still squirmed, faster and whiter, longer and more slippery. They always came out clean, though my mouth was filling with blood.
Then I looked out: I looked around a small dusty room with tan curtains and wooden bunk beds, which had become my place of waiting. I saw my mother—she was standing at the doorway, leaving, her hair blowing wild in the desert wind. The room was nailed together, flat wooden boards turned gray by the dry heat. Sunlight was streaming in through the cracks between the planks and the rusted holes of the tin roof. I was alone again, scalding in the silent bright.
And so I stood in front of an old washbasin and looked into its dusty oval mirror. I reached into my throat and pulled. This one was long, I could feel it coming up like a breathing tube, and it coiled as I pulled, its white body writhing in my hand, then relaxing in the violent light.
?
oh boy. what is this?
I don't really know
but its terrifying to me. It's actually hard for me to leave it up here on the front page--every time i sign on i see it and want to take it down.
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BEAUTY IN THE TERROR
Once I moved through the "grossity" (grossness has no place here) of the images, and into the death spiral of your surrender, I found a wonderful beauty, perhaps in the wind of your mother's blowing hair in the desert of night, or maybe I found beauty in the terror of the maggot, now your tongue, coming alive from the voicelessness in your throat. In the end, I think the maggot is an Angel, seeking roots in the body of your terror, breathing into you the inspiration that only death can as it relaxes in the violent light.
I must dissagree, again.
The maggot as angel is wishful thinking. I doubt that anyone on those trains heading to Auschwitz thought that they were in the midst of poetic metaphor... and that was only the warm up.
Nothing about the language and framing of Noah's description suggests that this is a metaphor, except my need. I refuse to accept the reality that is described. But there is much in ordinary experience that is terrible and fearful. The only option available (poetic or not) is acceptance and focus.
question
hi, arnold. i'm wondering about your second paragraph here. "Nothing about the language and framing of Noah's description suggests that this is a metaphor, except my need. I refuse to accept the reality that is described."
i'm wondering what else this might be if not metaphor. i think it clearly is not just a description of a waking-state reality -- otherwise that would mean Noah has lots of maggots burrowed into his head! unless i am missing something, after all... and how about the title he gave to it?
"I refuse to accept the reality that is described." -- meaning that you try and turn it into metaphor because you are trying to deny it? if you saw my previous post to this piece you'll see that i pretty clearly take it to be metaphor; in fact, i see it as analogous to a specific experience in my life (though i don't draw out the analogy explicitly). but i'm trying to re-think this in some way.
i wonder if perhaps you and i just see 'reality' in different ways... for example, i find dreams to be both real and metaphorical; and as for the waking state world (which i refuse to call the 'real world' without being more specific than that), well clearly it is the more-real experience than the dream, but i don't think it is the most-real experience, nor do i think it escapes becoming metaphorical (at least sometimes). in addition to the real world (now that i've been more specific), there is the internal world, which turn out not to be so separate, but -- being a good Cartesian -- i accidentally believe they are. and so i experience internal growth, for example, while the outside world seems to remain moving, but not much different. so then when things happen on the outside that reflect that internal growth, it's like a dream!
-------
but i am also wondering about your take on your own experience... because you say that the maggot as Angel is wishful thinking, and you also say that you need to turn it into a metaphor. so i'm wondering if you are shunning that need to see "the reality that is described" as a metaphor -- as a kind of self-deluding. am i understanding?
thank you James.
You are correct that the situation that Noah describes is hard to imagine except for a dead person. Maybe the writer is dead (in some way)?
My earlier comments were critical of jumping into the world of metaphor too quickly... before exploring the possibilities of it as a description of someone's waking reality. The poem does not have a note attached that advises the reader to consider metaphors. It just presents the description of a difficult situation. It is up to readers to decode its meaning, if there is one.
It is for us to consider the possibilities on the poem's own terms before jumping to metaphor. Metaphor is the easy way out, although I concede that it may be, in the end, all that is left to us.
Noah's post
My first association with Noah's post was Kafka. Not that Noah was being Kafka or had any thought of him as he was writing. I saw the imagery, not necessarily, as a statement about an individual person but as some larger description about a state of mind that may be addressing a collective experience of the terror relating to life in this place and time. The mother was, to me, the lost beauty and security - perhaps innocence that the present situation obliterated.
REALITY VERSUS REALITY AND OTHER ANGELS
Arnold, this is a wonderful point you raise. Can we simultaneously be situated in two (or more, for that matter) dimensions of consciousness, one, for example, on a train heading for Aushwitz, and the other in a space (poetic or spiritual, but transpersonal) transcendent of the horror of actual experience? If we can, a maggot might also exist in both realms, as well.
The renowned psychiatrist, Victor Frankl, like a number of other creative minds who suffered the insanity of the Holocaust, was one of those who actually survived the death camp and found, in the very depth of his suffering, that even in the most absurd, painful and dehumanized situation, life has potential meaning and that therefore even suffering itself is meaningful. He wrote:
“ If a prisoner felt that he could no longer endure the realities of camp life, he found a way out in his mental life - an invaluable opportunity to dwell in the spiritual domain, the one that the SS were unable to destroy. Spiritual life strengthened the prisoner, helped him adapt, and thereby improved his chances of survival. ”
Man's Search for Meaning, p. 123
Or is it Arnold's dream?
I am having a lot of difficulty with this post, Arnold. I am wondering how Auschwitz got drawn into this, or into relationship with noah's dream.
I am currently doing a lot of heavy research about Auschwitz and the Nazi persecution of the Jews. It's for a documentary that I am working on. Every day I am thinking about this subject, I eat it and sleep it and dream it (if you were wondering about the "pope poop" dream, it's actually related to this project) so when I saw you use the example here of victims en route to Auschwitz it completely sent my heart into my stomach. I thought, "did I miss something? Was Noah on the train in this dream/piece?"
You seem to say "How dare you translate images of suffering into metaphor for spiritual growth?" I see. I think I understand. But aren't you then already translating these maggots into images of suffering? How are you drawing the analogy (similar, by the way, to the use of metaphor) of the dream experience of maggots crawling out of one's mouth to being sent to an unknown place and uncertain future by people who treat you as though you were of less value than a speck of dust?
I suppose you could say to me "don't you think you would be suffering if you had maggots crawling around inside your head and mouth"? And I would say, "it would freak the shit out of me" but I don't know if I would have time to suffer I would be running to the ER. If I am already dead, I would not have the experience, so that is a mute point. So I ask you, why do you make this parallel between the uncontrollable maggot fest in the dreamer's mouth and the train to Auschwitz?
One more thing. I feel it is pretty clear to me that this piece is presented as a dream. It feels to be a dream, he even mentions waking from a dream in this piece. While it is not the dream itself, but the "dream narrative" as Freud would call it, that we read, it feels inaccurate to call Noah anything other than the dreamer. I don't think, based upon his other writings, that he just made this up to present it to us as a narrative piece. His poetic mode of writing is because he is a poet, but the subject is a dream. But I could be wrong!
Caterina -
?
Caterina -
I was not commenting (with the Auschwitz image) about Noah's poem or being on the train. I was commenting about Om's remark that the maggot was an angel. The train image is there to make an extreme example. Who could possibly view the experience of those sad passengers as a poetic metaphor? or who riding on that train would be calmed by denying the reality of the experience? None of us. Just to think of it is an affront to what we know of that painful time.
So with the maggots, Noah's description is real and in life. It does not deserve to be rendered impotent by metaphor. Victor Frankl speaks of the psychology of survival for the victim. We are not victims. We do ourselves a disservice by anesthetizing ourselves. We need to look at those maggots in the situation that Noah puts them in.
Maggots are a terror for us because of their intimate association with death. Do you know anyone who keeps maggots as pets, gives them names, and walks them on leashes in the neighborhood?
i think what i failed to
i think what i failed to express in my earlier 'question' was that i am struggling with this notion that metaphor is, as you put it earlier, "the easy way out"; that metaphor is a denial of the reality of the experience. perhaps i am just a dreamer who is attached to his symbolic dream world, but i can't quite see why metaphor necessarily renders the experience impotent.
i thought i had come up with a possibility, but it seems to me that any desire/need to claim the experience as metaphorical requires the understanding of the reality of the experience. so even if the experience "doesn't happen" -- if it is a dream or something completely made up by the writer -- there must be a reality of the experience or image in order for it to mean something symbolically. this is my first time thinking about this, though, so i'm still pushing through and working it all out, and i'd love some help!
i wonder if you think metaphor necessarily sucks the life out of experience, or if you are perhaps weary of the possibility of losing sight of the raw-ness of the reality for what feels to you like the less-honest metaphor?
a mouthful of medusa's dreds
By commenting on Om's post, you were also commenting on Noah's dream, indirectly, since Om was commenting on Noah's dream, on Noah's maggots. Om was not talking about "maggots" or the experience of having maggots crawling around inside one's mouth but was commenting on Noah's dream. So when you said that for Om to make a metaphor out of these maggots was akin to making a metaphor out of the train ride to Auschwitz, it was suggesting that noah's maggots should be read as an experience as terrifying and humiliating as that train ride. Thereby, making your own interpretation of the valence of Noah's maggots.
To relate to the dream as a whole, one needs to relate from the perspective of the dreamer as a whole. Our dreamer is not an individual without history, or an isolated actor within a set of images that occur only at the moment of dreaming. The dream comes up as a language to reveal feelings and deep thought-constructs that are shifting and seeking resolve or release in our psyches.
To recognize the language of dream, one has to sort of "speak dream." This means primarily relating to the feelings that the dream evokes but it also means noticing how the internal structures of the dream, the shifts, the internal relationships, the presence of certain objects, the use of language to describe these shifts (in this case, the dreamer's struggle to get rid of these gruesome undesirables, his journey to the desert to let them wither, the room, the vision of his mother leaving, the light through the planks, etcetc) tell a story.
I appreciate that you do not want to lose the sense of the dream's feelings of terror by providing a gloss. But we risk, like Perseus approaching Medusa, becoming petrified in the terror of that vision if we do not look upon it through the lens of reflection (to enter this lens is to understand the power of metaphor to speak to real experience). The very fact that these maggots are presented to us in dream language and are not literal maggots in Noah's mouth, requires us to enter too the language of the interior, of reflection, association, identification. As readers of this dream, we will each approach it with our own associations (based upon our own experiences) that the dream might evoke for us. As readers of this blog, we will do the same for each post we read. Our lenses are inherently colored, but light passes through. Recognition is possible, through recognizing the dreamer/writer in myself.
a clarification
"[Your post to Om was] suggesting that noah's maggots should be read as an experience as terrifying and humiliating as that train ride. Thereby, making your own interpretation of the valence of Noah's maggots."
I want to be clear that I am in no way saying that the terror is not the same, actually, at least for the dreamer before he woke up! I am merely pointing out how you were actually assigning a very powerful valence to Noah's terror, and so in fact referring to Noah's dream (or how you read it).
A MOUTHFUL OF DREADED CATERINA
Caterina, I don’t even know where to begin, so I’ll begin. Notwithstanding your penetrating first paragraph of logical dialysis, your following paragraphs need to be revisited. They are simply brilliant, and separate theses in their own right.
You spin a magical web as you first note the integral vision of the Maggot dream and then connect the dreamer (in this case, Noah) to his history or, for that matter, to the historical (archetypal) collective consciousness, and then finally to Buddhist ontology of emptiness and psychoanalytic dream theory. You ask Noah to see his dream as greater than its appearance, as a labyrinthine path with psychic treasures of “feelings and deep thought-constructs that are shifting and seeking resolve or release in our psyches.” The resolve is meaningful and the release is freedom from distorted meaning.
This dream narrative, an analogy perhaps for an analytic journey, and the interpretive methodology indeed involves “relating to the feelings that the dream evokes but it also means noticing how the internal structures of the dream, the shifts, the internal relationships, the presence of certain objects, the use of language to describe these shifts, tell a story.” This is classic hermeneutics, an aesthetically gorgeous approach to interpretation. What isn’t stated here, and what I would like to add, is the intersubjective space Noah is co-creating as he invites us to look into his looking, or dream into his dreaming.
And now, my favorite paragraph: Medusa putting on her lip gloss, and Perseus fearing his dip loss. Like Perseus entering the gaze of Dante's Dark Eros of Desire (a poem I posted a few weeks back), we take the risk of “becoming petrified in the terror of that [dream or, I will argue, the Aushwitz] vision if we do not look upon it through the lens of reflection (to enter this lens is to understand the power of metaphor to speak to real experience).” I think Arnold’s fear (if this doesn’t sound too presumptuous) of losing grip of the actuality of what is horrific will necessarily be avoided by a real, developed empathy (cultivated in large part through the poetic process in which self-awareness potentially evolves): “Recognition is possible, through recognizing the dreamer/writer [victim] in myself.”
I would love if you could develop (or at least explain) this thought further. In Dante’s Commedia, doesn’t he (Dante) present Medusa as the site of a disclosure of truth (this would fit Arnold’s plea to face the real terror)? And yet, because of its intrinsic poetic form, the event of Medusa becomes potentially an experience of truth both human and divine (that is, for Dante, the act of interpretation itself participates in the self-manifestation of the Word in poetic form).
Canto 9, Inferno
Dante and Vergil have arrived at the gates of Dis proper having passed through several circles of hell where the lighter sins are receiving their just desserts, and are about to enter the walled and gated city which encloses the souls whose sinning stems from a willful dissimulation, basically from a distortion of truth. here are the majority of the bad boys, the false counsellors, the epicurians, corrupt popes, etc. Vergil announces that he knows the way through, that he had gone down to the center of hell once before when having been called from the dead by Erictho, a legendary witch of Lucan's Pharsalia, whose power of witchy use of language was able to invoke Vergil's spirit to do her bidding. Just as the poet is doing by invoking Vergil's character and name and all of the names and characters, most real historical figures some ficitional, that he uses to give example of these "sins". And here he is about to enter the infernal city, into the realm of the liars, when he is faced with a moment of having to distinguish himself as poet, for the first time, breaking into the narration to advise the reader to see the "doctrine that is hidden under the veil of the strange verses." He basically reminds his readers to see the truth in his lie. Freccero gives the best gloss of this "doctrine": that the use of metaphor or poetry is necessary lie (even in scripture, the use of poetry is a lie which is used to draw closer to the truth). the lie is not o the same rder as the sins that are being punished here. Paul referred to the "people of the veil" who refused to see truth of revelation in history, were stuck on the "literal"... I am tired.
This break in the narration comes at a moment when, after demons have forbidden passage into the city, slamming the door in Vergil's face, three Furies have risen up above the gates, terrible figures of feminine rage (like me once a month) and threaten the pilgrim and his guide saying that they will call Medusa who will turn him to stone. Vergil covers Dante's eyes with his own hand. Then, they hear a sound as if coming from far away, heavy steps, souls leap like frogs out of the way and there's this "messo" (messenger/angel), bright, and waving his hand in front of his face to clear the foul atmosphere. He reminds everyone down there Who's Boss, to open the gates and not tempt the wrath of the almighty, and waves a little wand, his "vergetto", which is styled very much like the wand of Hermes.
Hermes was the figure of the messenger of the Gods who had by then become a figure of the act of interpretation or penetration, able to penetrate what is impenetrable to human understanding, and make it meaningful, translatable to human consciousness. He is, in some ways, the promise of the metaphor to signify real experience without getting caught in the reified forms of the "lie" itself, of the figures poetry uses to speak of real experience.
So, to answer your question: "In Dante’s Commedia, doesn’t he (Dante) present Medusa as the site of a disclosure of truth (this would fit Arnold’s plea to face the real terror)? And yet, because of its intrinsic poetic form, the event of Medusa becomes potentially an experience of truth both human and divine (that is, for Dante, the act of interpretation itself participates in the self-manifestation of the Word in poetic form)." Yes, by Dante's standard, all language and experience and meaning are the divine Word, manifestations of this Word, bound by love, in one volume. If we get stuck on the terror of the threat of medusa (to be petrified would be to be without language, without the ability to move through or continue to "make sense") we would cease to recognize the human/divine significance in suffering and trauma, thereby relegating those victims of trauma to a state of petrification. I think. This terror would block us from penetrating the depths of human (the mind's) malace, and I can't spell for shit, but it's like what I experience when I contemplate the holocaust. I do feel on the verge of complete and utter terror but I cannot stop trying to understand the source of that terrible creation. Because I don't want to contribute to it ever happening again.
RILKE IS MY DANTE KICKING OUT FREUD AND PROSTRATING TO AIR
All this inspired by Arnold’s challenge! Thank you Arnold!
Question: is the poetic form (with all its literary devices) a legitimate way to confront the terror of suffering and death?
“Then, they hear a sound as if coming from far away, heavy steps, souls leap like frogs out of the way and there's this "messo" (messenger/angel), bright, and waving his hand in front of his face to clear the foul atmosphere…. [He is] the messenger of the Gods who had by then become a figure of the act of interpretation or penetration, able to penetrate what is impenetrable to human understanding, and make it meaningful, translatable to human consciousness. He is, in some ways, the promise of the metaphor to signify real experience without getting caught in the reified forms of the "lie" itself, of the figures poetry uses to speak of real experience.”
Caterina, I would like to just take this little slice of looking inside your looking to revisit, as Noah before me, Rilke’s Duino Elegies, the first elegy. For today is my beloved Rilke’s birthday! and I would like to walk again within him along the strong wind path overlooking the Adriatic Sea, where the first lines of the elegy emerged as he was contemplating two letters he received, one from his attorney, and one from Viktor von Gebsattel, a psychiatrist and philosopher, who replied to Rilke’s query about entering into a psychoanalytic treatment.
The Elegies are Rilke in an existential crisis, and he took it as an opportunity to reach as deeply as he could into a kind of potential Angelic space, to address the impossibility of overcoming death and suffering, yet where he finds both beauty and terror in the darkness that he loves “more than the flame/that limits the world.” Rilke’s psychological terror of death feels to me like the (perhaps more theologically/philosophically rendered) terror of Dante’s Medusa, who threatens to turn the poet/pilgrim to stone-- to make him mute-- for lying: “(to be petrified would be to be without language [a form of death], without the ability to move through or continue to "make sense" [of reality]) we would cease to recognize the human/divine significance in suffering and trauma.”
This Medusa/petrification code you speak of has a double dimension: the punishment of lying (or the effects caused by lying, in the Buddhist sense)-- defined here as the inability to understand the ultimate nature of reality;” and the ignorance of lying that leads to suffering. This is the infernal city of the living dead of humanity that, because it fails to see, fails to understand, reconcile and balance, in the broadest sense, thought and feeling, imagination and reality, permanence and change. As Rilke reminds us, “it’s hard being dead,/and full of retrieval, before one gradually feels/a little eternity.”
But, Medusa, like Noah’s Maggot, is also an angel. “For beauty is nothing but/ the beginning of terror, that we are still able to bear,/ and we revere it so, because it calmly disdains/to destroy us. Every Angel is terror.” That is, because “we are not really at home/in the interpreted world.” And there is stuck in us a mind that gets stuck in not being able to see into the seeing and therefore “there remains to us yesterday’s street,/ and the thinned-out loyalty of a habit/that liked us, and so stayed, and never departed.” And the darkness of night (the lack of self-awareness/ sin=”to miss the mark”) is our nightmare “when the wind full of space/wears out our faces.”
Like Dante’s Medusa, the Angel for Rilke is the turning point, the Sphinxean riddle and paradox of truth. In death (awareness) there is life and the beauty of that realization. As Wallace Stevens says, “Death is the mother of Beauty; hence from her, Alone, shall come fulfillment to our dreams/And our desires.” This is possible because the Word, or truth, or language has within it the "doctrine that is hidden under the veil of the strange verses." The poet/pilgrim creates the bridge (L. metaphora) between the human and divine vis-à-vis the use of poetic devices of correspondence, such as metaphor and analogy. The poetic form of truth is, as you say, a necessary lie, what Stevens calls, the “supreme fiction,” to describe how poetry integrates imagination and reality. Fictive here does not mean not true, but conversely, a kind of truth that seeks an affinity with reality sufficient enough to actually suspend disbelief! This type of poetic truth, or fiction mediates between the drive and needs of desire and the conditions of reality, a reality, by the way, that is empty! (“And, nothing himself, beholds/Nothing that is not there and the nothing that is.”).
Do you not know yet? Throw the emptiness out of your arms
to add to the spaces we breathe; maybe the birds
will feel the expansion of air, in more intimate flight.
Happy Birthday, Rilke!
not blowing the cake out with the candles
Thank you for taking me within Rilke, whom I don’t know so well, tonight in honor of his birthday (and why not also his deathday?)
My favorite Rilke line is this: “we are not really at home/in the interpreted world.” It speaks to me of the darkness, and the tenderness of the knowing that precedes naming, of a moment of recognition that can only be breathed in silence. This pre-interpreted silent touch speaks to me of the secreted other that is automatically created by thought itself. As Aristotle said, “we cannot think without an image” and yet that image stands both as a bridge to the activity of thinking and as an “other”, other than where the mind desires to rest. It is not James’ dream woman whom he desires but the feeling of safety and real recognition that he felt in her presence, it is "her" and "her and him" and "him" that he desires. And “She” stands for an embodied whole, a whole person who knows and loves and gives just as James does, she is the deep reflection of him, but she is not identical to him. It’s her otherness which responds to his deepest desire and stands for their completion, of James(thinker) and Her(thought/reflection) and their relationship (thinking). The experience of love for the secreted other (this is called the Goddess principle by one tantric tradition) reflects this triadic experience of the mind.
“We are not really at home in the interpreted world.” We are never satisfied with the thought/image, but seek to know through it, and to know what? ... Yet another thought, another bridge, another creation. We are not really at home in the world of understood if by “understood” I mean a thing/thought/idea/image other than myself (and since I cannot think myself to be anything but a thing or an idea, I find I am at home only in thinglessness, that which is not “thing” but pure consciousness, beyond the name “pure consciousness” which only points and indicates a real experience or state or deep feeling I cannot name, well I can name it but I’d miss the mark).
And yet I feel intuitively that it is much simpler than this. I do feel at home and do rest when I accept these dualities, this desire, as part of the nature of thinking, and thinking and desire as tools for tapping into or guiding my awareness. I feel at home in so many ways, though I do not know what I would call them except acceptance, gratitude, faith, love. And it is not that I “accept” anything other than the responsibility to be awake to the nature of mind. I also accept that “it’s all good (or empty, if you prefer)”, that containing mind is a certain integrity, a ground that ensures that the very logical interconnectedness of thinking itself is and can be just as it is. I guess this integrity is the promise of Word.
But I wonder at the existential crisis, which I know is a very real psychological space, but it feels to me to be self-imposed. Something about it seems to be seeking rest in thinking itself and so will necessarily encounter this crisis (I guess that is why it is called an "existential crisis"). But maybe it is through the poem that Rilke penetrates to his knowing which is broader and more encompassing than thinking. For if his is a terror of death for the way in which it must be the only answer to his desire to be home beyond the interpreted world, and if home is a space of relationship (of the triadic kind) than I very much love this death. But I am not sure I am, in my line of thinking, really getting Rilke.
I love this: “Fictive here does not mean not true, but conversely, a kind of truth that seeks an affinity with reality sufficient enough to actually suspend disbelief! This type of poetic truth, or fiction mediates between the drive and needs of desire and the conditions of reality, a reality, by the way, that is empty!” The metaphor, the analogy and such things that are created to speak to real experience but use the language of “allos”, of “other speak”, actually imitate the nature or experience of thinking itself, and in doing so respond to a deep desire in our psyches to be recognized.
CATERINA, RILKE AND SELF-IMPOSED SUFFERING
“But I wonder at the existential crisis, which I know is a very real psychological space, but it feels to me to be self-imposed. Something about it seems to be seeking rest in mind itself and so will necessarily encounter this crisis.”
I totally agree with this and I believe Rilke suffered from, ironically, an isolated mind, outside the poem. I love Rilke, and I love his frailty. And he was so frail. So delicate as the roses he tended. But, something tells me he never found peace, never ultimately found the gnosis beyond the interpreted world. I mean, I think he had moments and those moments were his poems, but there seemed to have been huge chasms of terror waiting for him between and following completion of his poems. When I see Rilke, I see the terror but I don’t see the beauty transformed into a realization sufficient enough to dissolve great suffering. I think his genius carried him over the rapids of his broken body and tortured mind, but he was a flower in a strong wind and with no protection. What fostered the sensitivity to embrace the divine dimensions also left him threadbare in the frigid night. He went from woman to woman seeking maternal warmth but had very little to give back. Sometimes I wonder if his need ever really reached love, outside the poem.
Om I meant to ask you
What did the letters say from Viktor and from the attorney?
i, too, love Rilke; though i
i, too, love Rilke; though i am less familiar with him than Om is, he is still my favorite poet. there are many poems of his to be read, and each one calls for such attention, i still haven't gotten to most of them. i picked up the Sonnets to Orpheus one day and didn't read any poem from outside this collection for nearly a year. one thing i love about his poetry is the delicacy, and yet the assertiveness. forgive me for being lost (&found;) in my love lately, but i was thinking about a kiss in these terms last night, and now i realize it is how i think of my favorite of Rilke's poems, as well. he is not afraid to say it, yet there is such care in the saying, and yes, Om, such frailty. the frailty must be the source.
when i think of Rilke i think of that word genius. the unfortunate thing about genius is that there have been so many more individuals able to tap into that elevated space, but were just never given the opportunities to explore their own intuitive gifts. luckily Rilke was able to. when i think of Rilke's genius i then think to myself, "i will never be a genius." and i am glad to think so, because i do not want to suffer Rilke's frailty, or his lifelong terror. to be so withheld, and so isolated... it seems many of the geniuses are left somewhat isolated... no, i will never be a genius; instead i can learn to be honest and aware in ways perhaps Rilke was never allowed. i think honesty is like love, too-- that there are different kinds of honesty. some kinds of honesty are more integrated, filled with compassion and understanding. some kinds are of the "brutal" sort, direct, in a way, and hurtful. there are many kinds. there's Rilke's kind of honesty, through which i can learn and get-in-touch and grow, nearly despite Rilke himself. i'm sorry for his suffering, and i am also glad he shared what he could before his own death, and i am also grateful that, even if he "never found peace, never ultimately found the gnosis beyond the interpreted world," somehow his words can help me reach where he couldn't.
THANK YOU, JAMES. RILKE, HONESTY AND TRUTH
James, i loved your post on Rilke and just want to comment briefly on this beautiful thought of yours: "i think honesty is like love, too-- that there are different kinds of honesty. some kinds of honesty are more integrated, filled with compassion and understanding. some kinds are of the "brutal" sort, direct, in a way, and hurtful. there are many kinds."
What i find helpful is distinguishing between honesty and truth. For me, honesty is truth WITH compassion. Truth without compassion might well serve propositions but not relationship.
I need to read this many times Caterina:
"It speaks to me of the darkness, and the tenderness of the knowing that precedes naming, of a moment of recognition that can only be breathed in silence. This pre-interpreted silent touch speaks to me of the secreted other that is automatically created by thought itself."
oh god, that is so beautiful Caterina. How did you do that? I shudder with a mysterious recognition. I need to let these words of yours move inside of me enter my blood for a while. I can only say that the silent moment of recognition you describe, the silent touch: I long for that, I have somehow experienced it climbing in the mountains--the roaring silence and suddenly a breath of wind on my cheek.
I desire to speak! And my desire ruptures the wholeness of that moment (like a burst womb). It must be. But I somehow feel that this language, this voice, will also guide me back to that silent, thing-less touch of pure awareness.
the secret is you
11/10/07
How I want to speak your name
as if it were a secret thing, hidden
between your lips. In the dark
I thought all things flowered
flesh, that flesh begot all.
I suppose that it is true,
but there are also words hidden
deeply by your body;
it is these I want to give, these
that finally push out and command:
breath be given voice! I want to speak
you, to find you in my voice—
to do this, to find my name
spoken in the tenderness of yours—
ARNOLD, MY FISTS OF LOVE ARE BEING WAVED
Arnold, your following five statements are examples of subjective opinion-- and therefore, personal truth-- attempting to be rendered objective fact and right:
“Maggots are a terror for us because of their intimate association with death.”
Maggots might indeed not be a terror if you’re not frightened of death. As Caterina stated, once you’re dead, there’s nothing to fear or even experience. There are quite a few people out there who actually aren’t afraid of death and so might not have this association to maggots. With that said, fear of maggots is not inherent, but learned, like everything else. Therefore, we can learn to love maggots, as well, and even experience them as angels because of their function of transforming waste into nourishment for the earth. That is in fact what maggots do.
“Who could possibly view the experience of those sad passengers as a poetic metaphor? or who riding on that train would be calmed by denying the reality of the experience? None of us. Just to think of it is an affront to what we know of that painful time.”
I think it’s unfair to claim that finding meaning in suffering is tantamount to “denying the reality” of the holocaust. Many of us (including here) work with holocaust survivors and their children (and grandchildren) everyday. That reality is never going away or being whitewashed, you need not worry. With that said, again, spiritual practice is real and comforting and many survivors of tragedy report that their faith has indeed been vital to their survival. Lastly, finding a deeper meaning through one’s creative process is spiritual practice and I would argue necessary to both mitigate the suffering from vast destruction on this planet, and to help create new ways to prevent future horrors. It is the creative mind that will save this planet, metaphors included. Creativity does not exclude (deny) the actuality, pain and suffering of tragedy, it merely provides healthy ways to make sense of it.
“Who could possibly view the experience of those sad passengers as a poetic metaphor?”
I could, and I will in honoring their lives because I know and can feel their pain. I honor them by elevating their existence, and mine. It is the poetry of hundreds of survivors that gives many more of us the courage to see and embrace the horrors.
“So with the maggots, Noah's description is real and in life. It does not deserve to be rendered impotent by metaphor.”
Please help me understand how metaphor renders one aspect of reality impotent. It appears as if you are mistaking metaphor for psychological denial. You also seem to fear that creative use of language is passive, that is, is tantamount to non-action. Lincoln, Martin Luther King and Gandhi immediately come to mind here as real examples contrary to this assumption.
“Victor Frankl speaks of the psychology of survival for the victim. We are not victims. We do ourselves a disservice by anesthetizing ourselves. We need to look at those maggots in the situation that Noah puts them in.”
You are creating a false dilemma here by joining the act of victimization with psychological anesthetization. Some of us are actually victims, but you are correct in arguing that we must not use these experiences to deny their occurrence.
I love this interpretation
(Om's "angel interpretation") and it resonates for me too for how I read this dream/piece. Brilliant dream, Noah! And yes, I think you are allowed to take credit for the brilliance of your subconscious, for the level at which you are opening to your deeper psychic language!
I love what Om here calls the "depth spiral of surrender." I was blown away by the constant return of these maggots, how when it seemed to be all over, they would return, as though they are bursting out of you, you could no longer control them, just as you can no longer control the unfolding of your creative genius. It feels like you've made a shift in opening to and aligning with your creative fire, what Om calls your "tounge", which I think is an apt perception.
It is terrifying! It is very very terrifying!!!!
I used to have dreams in which I was flying and then would be drawn to the great expansive emptiness of light blue above me. As soon as I was attracted to it I felt as though I could no longer come down, I was too high! I would look down at the land and see for miles but keep rising, as though the emptiness had a gravitational pull by its sheer volume. I was being sucked into this infinite space now without control. But of course there was no danger there except extinction and losing all points of orientation, all ways to identify "me"! And that's terrifying! I used to always make myself wake-up from these dreams. [Of course, this dream was not about the "tongue", but my fear of being too expansive and not knowing how to create boundaries (something that I was able to work on and I now no longer have these dreams).] Your dream is quite different. There is much more integration actually going on, or desire for it. I am going to read it again...
Maybe too, this Angel of your own tongue seeking integration is terrifying and you are seeking some ways to slow it down, to slow down the process? Trust in the ground of your desire and intention, Noah. It's all good.
Thank You Caterina!
Your response makes me feel so much less afraid, and so recognized! I think the creative impulse and the desire is terrifying. Since I was a child, I've always been terrified of my own energy, which I feared (and apparently still fear) would annihilate me from within. I was afraid that I would destroy the world with it, afraid that I would destroy myself. But I did not recognize this about the dream until you noticed it. I feel such an incredible flow of trust and recognition coming from this blog, and from this post of yours. Thank you so much. And for your dream, which makes me think back to our discussion of "theory" and boundary; how without it, some of us would feel sucked into that infinite undefined space. Ah, but your wisdom here seems to be (if i read correctly) that the root of one's terror is also the source of their strength. That is beautiful indeed.
fear and friendship
A philosopher I know says that fear is a tightly bound gift to you from your divine self. Draw it near and unwrap it slowly: your divinity is contained within.
an non-dreamt dream
this felt to me like an non-dreamt dream, when i first read it. it opens up pretty firmly in the real world, and pretty disgusting. and i instantly thought, "wait a minute, Noah, did this happen??" i don't think it would be so disturbing if it wasn't sort of reasonable to suspect it possible.
and then the second paragraph comes and as i sink my teeth (forgive me!) more into the disgusting and fairly terrifying description of maggots infesting the inside of the mouth i notice that the concreteness i sensed in the first sentence is beginning to swirl like "Starry Night" and i find myself moving into a dream-like world (dreams in which i look at my mouth in the mirror always involve all of my teeth falling out).
i think by the time of the third paragraph (i'm hesitant to call them stanzas even though that is what they are, yes?) i find myself sort of safe navigating the rest of the piece because i think to myself, "if i get too attached to this as a waking world experience, i'll be too focused on the fact that this person needs to go to the doctor!" so interestingly, i needed to experience that dream-like quality to break into the rest of the piece and experience it back in that concreteness - with the terror but with the courage and ability to keep digging (sorry again!).
you move into the desert, the entire landscape drying out with you -- it feels like you become stiff, and brittle.
where is the beauty? is it in the texture of the language? or perhaps the very fact of writing down such terror? sure; but for me there is a different beauty, too. it's largely in the "And so" of the final section. there is something like the beginning of acceptance, which might just be the end of resistance in some ways. there are things that frighten me -- things that terrified and paralyzed me, say, four years ago; but that now just give me a jolt... when they are terrifying the feeling is, "This is absolutely terrifying, and there is nothing I can do to escape." still i resist. meanwhile, growth happens, and when the very same thing confronts once more there is still the fear, but there is a new language, a new fortitude, a new capacity for that fear, to feel it and recognize something within it that offers opportunity instead of mere terror.
something that, only two years ago, clouded my head leaving me furious, cruel, depressed and eventually quite incomprehensibly (to me) frightened... now has confronted me once more, and it has me a bit sad and unsure, a bit scared, and willing to face the fear itself and ask, "why have you dug your way into my throat like this?" even if i don't get much of an answer just yet.
metaphors and maggots
I see, in your statement about the Holocaust Arnold, the fear that making the terrible into a metaphor for the beautiful will limit our desire to act, that it will somehow demean real suffering, that it is an outrage to morality. And I think your point is a good one--how do we turn our meanings, our metaphors, into action?
I dreamt this after re-reading the first of Rilke's Duino Elegies, right before I fell asleep. I feel the terror now in my waking life. I think the metaphor (1533, from M.Fr. metaphore, from L. metaphora, from Gk. metaphora "a transfer," especially of the sense of one word to a different word, lit. "a carrying over," from metapherein "transfer, carry over," from meta- "over, across" (see meta-) + pherein "to carry, bear" (see infer).) carries the expression of terror from my dream world into our "waking life." I think that what is literal, as Arnold rightly points out, to the dream world (the death world?), where the speaker of this piece tries to write from, must be transfered, translated, into the language of this waking world. The terror is real to both, but where does the terror point us, and what can we use to carry the language of the dream over, and give it meaning here?
And what about our different subjective languages? What can I use to transfer the meanings of your world into the meanings of mine?
Feelings are indisputably real and literal to the person who feels them. How do I transfer my feeling, through language, into your feelings?
Can my dream be transfered to your meaning? Can yours be transfered to mine? I think in some sense, we are all using metaphors. Is not language itself a metaphor (and creator) of experience?
I would like to know your dreams.
i dreamt i fell in love, and
i dreamt i fell in love, and then when i fell in love i feared it was only a dream.
the dream love was and still is a real love-- in fact, i often miss the other from that dream very much; the dream love was also a metaphor... i was finally opening up to the possibility of sharing in what i call authentic relationship (a return to the state of bearing: a constant turning from my experience to yours, a constant holding in of my experience, embracing and holding in yours, then returning to my own, bearing it, returning to yours... it cannot be a static thing because each moment is a new self-experience, a new feeling, a new me, a new you, and a new me & you... it is like the flow of electricity through a system: this is, i believe, one reason why touch can be so important-- it offers a physical manifestation of the relating, one that shows both parties clearly that the connection is indeed there, and the energy is flowing...)
one might find it somewhat easy to recognize how this dream love, while being a real feeling and real experience, is also a symbolic representation of my waking state experience. using this example: over time i become more in touch with my emotions, and with my need to feel recognized, and to feel trusting and safe. at the time of the dream i have begun trusting myself enough to construct an experience of the kind of relationship i need most-- i have the need to experience it (to know what it feels like, and to know it exists), and the capacity to recognize it for what it is, mixed with the need to learn how to identify it. it is a real experience, a metaphor, and a lesson/opportunity all wrapped up into one.
does it seem strange, though, to say that the very same is true for the waking world love? clearly it is a real feeling and a real experience. maybe a little less clearly it is also a lesson/opportunity. but i think clearly enough that i won't try and explain it. perhaps least clearly is that this experience-- love-- is also a symbolic representation of my development. for example: one day i find myself experiencing the first glimpse of what i call 'authentic relationship' -- in a dream; then nearly a year later, for the first time, i have a similar experience in the waking world--- can it possibly be avoided that this experience is a manifestation of the development of my self-awareness?
i like what you said, Noah, about Arnold's post: "how can we turn our meanings, our metaphors, into action?" if i'm on to something one way of answering your question is to say we can recognize our metaphors in our actions, and our actions in our metaphors-- we don't have to separate them from one another. i guess my suggestion would be that we suffer from attempting to split, for example, the metaphorical from the real. how can we decide what sort of action to take? thus far i've found the clearest signpost to be feelings -- that is, once i clearly recognize my feelings i can see clearly which way to go --, so if i can bridge the gap between my ideas of metaphorical and real, and just find feeling somewhere therein my ENTIRE experience, perhaps action will become much easier to figure out.
Transfer of feeliings
Noah, I don't know what you mean when you say you want to transfer your feelings into mine. I can be empathetic to your feelings. I can feel compassionate toward your feelings and no matter how deeply I feel these things or imagine what you are feeling, I am still outside your experience, unless I absorb your feeling into mine, and then, don't I risk blurring the boundaries of you and me and forgetting who I am?
Is language the creator of experience or just a means to share experience?
what i meant
and thank you for pointing out this confusion in my words, is using language/metaphor as a way of expressing my feelings to you. Turning my subjective experience, as expressed through my writing, into your (possibly different)subjective experience. I do not mean to imply some king of merging of selves. I am more interested in what happens when I write something, using my own mode of expression and metaphor, and then you interpret it through yours.
action
"How do we turn our meanings, our metaphors, into action?" All of your questions are about bridging the gap between our experiences. We each know that we will be judged by others and by ourselves for our actions. The sadness is that we cannot share our dreams beyond our ability to act them out in ways that can be perceived by others and for which there is a context of sympathy and common culture that gives clues about how to interpret those actions. It is all writing and reading poetry.
i disagree.
i disagree.
"The sadness is that we cannot share our dreams beyond our ability to act them out in ways that can be perceived by others and for which there is a context of sympathy and common culture that gives clues about how to interpret those actions. It is all writing and reading poetry."
i think i have had a vastly different experience than this, than that "it is all writing and reading poetry." i have found a way of sharing my dreams that seems to me to go far beyond my ability to act them out, though i'm not sure, by the time i finish writing this post, we will disagree entirely with each other... just a little bit.
i'll speak explicitly of dreams, though i think dreams, as i pointed to in my other post, can point to many different experiences. i speak often of this dream in which i fell in love and, long story short, touched the face of my beloved, instantly feeling a sort of dissolution into the intersubjective space. to be quite straightforward about it, i believe this experience (along with many other experiences, and much reflection and investigation and struggle) has helped me to becomemore loving in all of my relationships. and those interactions in turn help me to become more attentive, more aware, even more loving. what i am saying is that i believe i have integrated my dream(s) into the entirety of my experience; through this integration i have grown; and through this growth my ability-to-respond in relationship has grown and blossomed.
James is always in love!
There she is again. I love that you have brought your dream back again. I love that you are feeling the recognition of that love and that you are aware that it is you. I love that you are integrating the feelings of that dream into you and owning them.
:)
thanks as always, Caterina. she's back in my life again, so back into the blog she comes. have you seen my new love poem? the thing that some friends of mine have been unable to connect is that the experience in this poem is the waking world manifestation of my experience in that dream... it is the realization of the moment of authentic relationship in the 'real' world. they all focus on the 'you' of the poem, without seeing much of the 'i' in the poem, which is odd considering the essence of the piece, for me, is the way the 'i' shines clearly for perhaps the first time, and only through the experience of relationship.
one friend of mine said it's too long, would have more impact in fewer lines; so i jokingly offered him a condensed version: i love you. what he didn't realize was that "i love you" does not capture the expression to be found in the poem-- at least not necessarily, and not, in my experience, ordinarily.
they also have tended to focus on the implications of such a moment in terms of the future of the relationship between these two people. this is why i emphasized "the moment of" in the above paragraph... "i love you" in terms of some long-term relationship, or filial ties, or old friends, etc, doesn't really apply to this moment for me, at least not yet. it is only i love you in this very specific sense within this very specific experience. so it becomes about the experience itself, and the growth it reflects, the opportunity it presents, and the beauty held within.
so i can't help but bring my blind love back into the blog-world, because her waking-world counterpart has taken me back to the experience by offering me a similar, yet much richer, experience. this also explains why i am "integrating the feelings of that dream into [me] and owning them" in a much bigger way than, say, when i first mentioned her on the blog. i wonder if i would have been ready for the waking-world experience if i hadn't already begun to share myself here on the blog...
:)
lol!!
"one friend of mine said it's too long, would have more impact in fewer lines; so i jokingly offered him a condensed version: i love you."
someone who comes back
"so i can't help but bring my blind love back into the blog-world, because her waking-world counterpart has taken me back to the experience by offering me a similar, yet much richer, experience."
Damn those real world women! lol!!
Don't you love the rich tapestry of real? Into which is woven the real threads of your thoughts and dreams, your desires, your reflection and language, your relationship, her response and complexity, your response and complexity, the space of breath, the silence at dawn, the unfathomable simplicity of touch, the tangle of emotions, the shimmering light in the depth of your memory, the reflection of yourself in your teachers, the oddness and incongruity of our difference, the tension whose friction provides the heat for growth?
I am going to read your poem now.
Thanks for pointing.
Nico
Nico, Nico, Where you are you?
Sorry, Emily,
I was busy isolating myself and dissociating by watching a couple of football games, one hockey game (go devils), eating some junk food and re-reading heart of darkness.
Didn't realize it was getting so warm in here.
PS Thank you for calling me out and snapping me out of it.
Dreams
Day dreams take me from the present. Night dreams and nightmares speak to me of the present.
There are other dreams which are conscious, ones that I set forth to remind me, when I am lost, of what I have set out to do. I dream that I will make a difference in the lives of people that I encounter with everyday. That dream shapes my behavior.
Are we all the children of
Are we all the children of abandonment and the sibling ghosts it leaves behind?
Maggots and aliens who are silently burrowed in the recesses of our psyches. Who will travel to the desert to kill and master our isolation?
I will go
again and again, into that desert and pull up the realing coils of my dying shame.
I will go now without fear because I know I'm not alone.
I will persist and break through, because there's no turning back now. (That's how it felt, Nico, teaching that yoga class, btw. Once it became clear I couldn't back out, I was already doing it, I had to just keep going and lighten up.)
What do aliens feel like in dreams?
a reading of your dream
Oh god, Noah, this dream is so beautiful. I have read it again now several times. I am getting this: the maggots are your own words, the beauty and honesty and purity of your expression. Their fearful and terrifying and undesirable aspect feels that it could be a combination of residual shame around opening yourself up as well as simply processing the old and dying (transforming) parts of you that you are letting go. Arnold’s image of death here is apt. You are in fact trying to get them out of you, release them, but they keep coming, as do your words and along with them any old feelings of shame around revealing your beauty. (Of course, I am projecting because I do not know you, but I do, a little, too... ☺ I am relating across a model of my own experience, and across the familiar feel of your language and thoughts.)
This dream speaks to me of a process of letting go: “I went to the desert to let them wither.” Going to the desert reminds me of entering the mystic or ascetic’s realm, drying up old thought patterns and desires that you no longer identify as necessary in order to live clear in your desire and love. The desert is a place of solitude, of withdrawl from distractions, of focus on intention. It is a place of purification. By a non-dualist perspective, the desert could be an interior space of reflection that purifies your vision so that you may see your intention more clearly and become more familiar with it, integrating it, owning it deeply. And of course, this reflection and desert is a state of mind that you cultivate with yourself and through your relationships. I love that you went to the desert to "let them wither"; it feels like you have made a very conscious turn towards your struggle.
The room: “Then I looked out.” I love the choice of words here. Are you here looking out into your creations? “I looked around a small dusty room with tan curtains and wooden bunk beds, which had become my place of waiting.” The bunk beds remind me of the blog. The waiting feels like faith in the process, though you know there will still be struggle. “The room was nailed together, flat wooden boards turned gray by the dry heat. Sunlight was streaming in through the cracks between the planks and the rusted holes of the tin roof. I was alone again, scalding in the silent bright.” God, this is beautiful! I wonder if this vision does not describe the light you see streaming in through the pieces that you have invited into your room, your blog? (I’m running with this analogy!!)
“I saw my mother—she was standing at the doorway, leaving, her hair blowing wild in the desert wind.” Separation. This feels like a blessing. Again, a dream about letting go. A very beautiful image. Her leaving feels peaceful, as though she were somehow honoring your path, blessing you.
“And so I stood in front of an old washbasin and looked into its dusty oval mirror. I reached into my throat and pulled. This one was long, I could feel it coming up like a breathing tube, and it coiled as I pulled, its white body writhing in my hand, then relaxing in the violent light.” I love what Om says here: “In the end, I think the maggot is an Angel, seeking roots in the body of your terror, breathing into you the inspiration that only death can as it relaxes in the violent light.” The breathing tube (which was mentioned in my post about Flowing with Ant Lou) does recall for me the final dying moments right after they removed her breathing tube. This final maggot feels like the final piece of you that you are drawing up to be revealed into that light (your light, your awareness), revealed in order to be let go.
I love the surrender of this final scene.
Ahhhh. Thank you for sharing. Gorgeous dream.
how is it that you do not know me
and yet you speak so deeply into me.
With respect to the breathing tube, I remember when the word breathing tube came out, I immediately thought back to that post of yours, which I struggled to respond to but could not. The interconnection of all this, how your ways of seeing open mine (to light) right down into the deepest parts of my subconscious is really blowing my mind. All of the brilliant ways of seeing on this blog are entering me and giving me new language and experience. The terrifying formlessness of the terror (like your boundless emptiness sucking you up) is transforming into strength and joy.
I love this, I love the recognition, I love relationship. It is giving me a self by helping me let it go!
"It is giving me a self by
"It is giving me a self by helping me let it go!"
There is something deeply perceptive about this statement.
I am experiencing this too, Noah.
"It is giving me a self by helping me let it go!"
Tell me again what "it" is.
You are creating this. Tell me what this is.
Caterina, what this is
is our creation. I think what I meant to write is "It is giving me a self by helping me let go," but that it works--let go of what?
I find that in the process of this relationship, of this very real recognition, I am gaining new ways of expressing and realizing my "self"--and this new language comes from all the wonderful expression you all are giving to this blog. In the relationship, in the recognition, my sense of self is strengthened (I am getting more confident) because I am finding new avenues of expression, new ways of understanding and perceiving, new experience to assimilate--I feel more expansive.
And I am starting to let go of my need to contain this self, because it is so clear that this experience of expanding self is not contained; it is a process of consciousness flowering from our intersubjective ground of relationship.
And the more I experience recognition, the more fertile that ground is, the more beautiful that flowering self becomes. I love the metaphor of the garden more and more.
Or maybe you put it best: experiencing the flow.
Noah get ready for Dante
What this is is "a process of consciousness flowering from our intersubjective ground of relationship".
Your project invites co-creation, but you breathed this project into life through the invitation. There are guiding principles at work that are ever present in that invitation to intimacy, to turn towards one another to seek understanding and connection. I am experiencing a recognition at a very deep level. I think this has to do with the kind of minds that are present here. I feel safe and so i have found that when I write for "our" blog my voice is more flowing and clear to me, which is creating a sense of freedom and confidence, much like you described.
"It is giving me a self by helping me let go". "The intersubjective ground of relationship" is giving me a greater sense of myself by inviting me to trust the relationship.
Now, if I were to really open up... that would be a whole new challenge for me. And this thought disturbs me because I didn't have it before last night, and it was just as I was going to bed (after ripping myself away from the computer!)... but I realized how much you are opening yourself to us (giving us your dreams, poems, project) and I thought "I haven't really shared anything about me" but that's not true! I guess I am feeling like I'd like to share more about my personal story, but I don't know which story to tell or why I would tell any specific story. I would want the sharing to arise naturally, out of the desire to share a particular aspect of me, but I do not see those aspects unless I go looking for them and then I create them in the looking! There's one now and it is the creation of this moment, creating and unfolding itself as I look at it... stories that in the telling create or reflect how I see myself now, at this moment. How differently would I tell them to you at another moment? How would I ever come to tell you about my relationship with my mother who raised me on an island in Maine, how alone I felt, the pressure I felt all of my young life to be a brilliant accomplisher like my mother while seeking only my own true authentic voice, or the desire I always had for my father to know how much I loved him, the longing to be loved by him or just to be with him. Any of these stories and the shennanigans and turns my life took to come to recognize them and free myself from their unconscious influence, I could share but I find myself not identifying with them so much anymore. (I relate to them, understand them, love them but I don't feel that they are me anymore... though the unconscious is always at work and I actively and presently seek to identify my transferences). I feel as though I am looking inward now and outward in a different way than i ever have. All of the stories for me now are about the relationships that I want to create (with my living mother and father, with my friends, and step-sister, and my late ant lou). I feel so alive and capable of turning towards these relationships with love and with me fully present, with my boundaries and voice real and rooted in my love! Maybe the reason I am bringing this up is that I am thinking about what it would mean for me to "open up" more (not that anyone has asked me too!!! LOL!!!) and I am finding that the opening is only this, this present feeling, and nothing else.
Oh, and the feeling is that I love you and am so grateful for your existence I could cry. I have felt so isolated (I was going to say "alone" but I love being alone) and on deep levels, unrecognized, except by very few. This is why I fell in love with Dante and Vico and Tasso, particularly the first, for their creative imaginations, the all-encompassing expansiveness of their minds, the intensity of their desire to reach into their intuitions and pull out language.
FACE TO FACELESSNESS IN NOAH’S INTERSUBJECTIVE SPACE: GAZING AND
Paradox. "It is giving me a self by helping me let go". You are good for that, Noah. And Caterina, the cat she is, brushes up against that soft lining as she goes face to face with and in your space of gaze. As I do, too, as with all of us, together, intersubjectors of space, flying high, immersing in crystal clear streams of looking into our looking, raising fists, playing chutes and lovers, feeling the abstractions and distilling the obstructions, all in "The intersubjective ground of relationship" which “is giving me a greater sense of myself by inviting me to trust the relationship.”
But, what is this gap and the gaping gaze that attempts to fill it as it dissolves in the dissolving, moment to moment? And who is the “me” and “I” gazing, reflecting and immersing in the uncertainty that is and must be between us? Or, must it be? I need my footing to get hold, even as that hold is dissolving, too. Look, Noah, here it comes, now! “I would want the sharing to arise naturally, out of the desire to share a particular aspect of me, but I do not see those aspects unless I go looking for them and then I create them in the looking! There's one now and it is the creation of this moment, creating and unfolding itself as I look at it..”
Why does uncertainty have to be so painful, so terrifying? Why does choice paralyze us? Here is the real Sphynxean riddle (or, perhaps I should say, koan): Free will is. Freedom is our life purpose, and we desperately need relationship to solve it, irrespective of how each of us defines relationship. For me, freedom is in the relating, whispering, “I am grateful to be alive so that I could cultivate compassion for all sentient beings, without exception.” Om mani padme hum. I am free! And then, plop! another moment of narrative begins: “All of the stories for me now are about the relationships that I want to create (with my living mother and father, with my friends, and step-sister, and my late ant lou). I feel so alive and capable of turning towards these relationships with love and with me fully present, with my boundaries and voice real and rooted in my love!”
Why is freedom always equated with love? I think that love is the manifestation of a Light, a Pure Luminescence that when Realized, no one and no thing, not even the train to Auschwitz, could shut off. And it begins, now.
Thank you Om
What is the gap and the gaping gaze that attempts to fill it?
As though you were witnessing my witnessing when I wrote this. Thank you for seeing this, for now I have a hold to foot onto, "il pie fermo sempre il piu` basso."
CATERINA, THE GAP
is the pause and the space between the notes, for example, that allow the notes to take form and express consciousness as meaning. The space is the intersubjective ground which is a precondition for all experience. The gaping gaze is the wonder and mystery of language looking into the looking of love.
Yes you
I didn't mean this to be a question but I love that you answered it. For it will always be a question as in a contemplation. For I did understand (instantly!) what you meant by the gap and the gaping gaze because it is precisely what I was feeling last night as I wrote that response/piece to Noah.
"And who is the 'me' and 'I' gazing, reflecting and immersing in the uncertainty that is and must be between us? Or, must it be? I need my footing to get hold, even as that hold is dissolving, too."
As I turn towards the question of what is intimacy for me now, I keep coming back to the notion of what is necessary, that is, what do I need? Last night I needed to face the question of the desire to "open up". It felt very sweet to me, and still does when I read it. It was scary too! That surprised me and excited me because I knew I was facing something uncertain. But then I realized that I was really writing to myself and could turn towards my own uncertainty with compassion.
Tasso
Tasso, the 16th century italian poet, [b. 1544, major work publ. 1575, d. 1595] had his own project which was to write a Christian Epic poem, something on the order of an Illiad or Aeneid but which would raise to a heroic status the role of the Christian Crusaders and the cause of Christianity (not because he was a Christian, but it was a great way to channel his creative genius and take advantage of the Catholic church's desperation during the time of the protestant split-off). His epic was to be a rhetorical salve to the Church's self-esteem slump which was leaping into defensive gear at a time when "values" were getting more relativized, "authority" was losing its aura of being incorruptible (and so was losing its power), even the role of poet was becoming less distant and untouchable, more playful and made more transparent vis a vis someone like Ariosto (the very en vogue poet at the time, brilliant, ready to philosophize with a healthy dose of romp and sensuality, an Italo Calvinian intellect meeting a Boccaccian sensuality, tapping into the dimension of "mind" as the neverending storytelling teller spelling out the soap operas of desire for love and honor). At a time when authority was in need of a make-over, Tasso was in need of job.
Tasso grasped the power of the Ariostian form of poetic entertainment, saw how readers loved the narratives of desire and intrigue (seemingly endless), how readers actually needed them to relate to their own experiences (sort of how we love shows like The Office or ER), but wanted to guide society's admiration and love of this type of poetry into the question of service to the greater good and back towards meaning. He wanted to return to authority its aura, but would need to find a fresh view of authority, actually inventing the authority himself (this is the power poetry and the humanities have always had over political power). His aim was to synthesize human desire and "meanings" into a greater meaning which could contain them without losing their distinct flavors, rather than relegating separate narratives to unending evolutions without encounter. He wanted to see if there was one poetic form that could embrace all the others, integrating the lyric, the philosphical/theoretical discourse, as well as the playful and lusty style of Ariosto, so he chose the Epic.
There's much more to say about why he chose the Epic form for his project, but what drove me to write about Tasso today is why I love him. He too loved Dante, Dante was his poet. What I see in Tasso, as in Dante, is the desire to embrace the whole of language (vis.a.vis. it's modes of expression and its role of bridging the gaps) and the whole of experience (vis.a.vis. subjective experience and reflection on desire, suffering, loss, longing, anger, etc) into a conceptual structure (the world of the poem) that could contain and integrate them, and proffer them a meaning which transcends the desire for meaning itself and reveals the nature of desire and language in its purest form. Tasso couldn't do this the way Dante did (and to even attempt it would have been to be copying Dante - something the pride of poets back then, as today, did not do without a self-conscious attempt to simultaneusly distinguish themselves from the father-poet). Tasso maybe couldn't do this for many reasons that were also cultural (his age really was becoming more aware of relative truth, he lived at the beginning of the "modern age", just at the time that Copernicus revealed that the earth was not the center of the sun's orbit, just before Galieo confirmed this) but also because, maybe, he didn't want to separate from Dante so much, he wanted to reach him and his transcendent and encyclopedic vision but couldn't (Dante would have been long since his poet ancestor, not a contemporary, separated as they were by 250 years). Why I love Tasso is because I recognize in him the experience of these very high or deep levels of synthesis, and his desire to pull them and live coherently though his poetry in alignment with this vision, but he failed, and how he failed is so transparent and sweet. I love his because he gave us the gift of his failure, the why of it, which is a lesson to all of us.
How do I know he failed? Besides the fact that he went "crazy" and was hospitalized to keep him from endangering himself or others (or embarassing his benefactor), and besides the fact that his "craziness" could have been an eccentric's form of temper-tantrum, (he used his time in solitary to write some of his most beautiful works - his Dialogues), I know he "failed" because he couldn't integrate his knowing, his desire, and his voice into this unified vision/experience of poetry that he sought; he never actually succeeded in this grande synthesis which would have been his "new self", the self he always was and to which he was ever seeking to give the wings of voice.
Reading Tasso one taps into, at different moments, different selves, voices, dimensions. The Christians of his epic are actually represented as less capable of delving into the depths of their experience, whereas the "pagans" he represents with more human pathos; they evince more sympathy for the human condition. At various times, Tasso writes some of the most sublime contemplative verse, at others some of the most sublime erotic imagery I have ever read (often the sublimely contemplative and erotic are the same verses). His struggle to synthesize these into a poetics of universal spiritual hegemony failed because, I think, his intuition continually sabotaged that aim! The tenderness and subtlety of the poet-philosopher-lover's gaze could not abide by or within an empirical, objectifying, paradigm of domination. His project failed because his brilliance and sensitivity won!
Tasso's epic, by the way, was the Gerusalemme Liberata, "Jerusalem Delivered" which was his life's work. He actually never finished it. It was published first in 1575, two more editions followed shortly after, and he continued to tweak and edit it until it morphed into his "Jerusalem Conquered," notably devoid of the more erotic and humane sweetness, colder and more austere... a strange turn which I have yet to fully absorb or understand as I have (as most critics do) sort of ignored this later version of his poem. Some believe that, because of his deep desire to be accepted and recognized, he actually changed to become more like his austere and un-poetic critics, diminishing his light so as to be recognizable to someone who could never recognize him!
Caterina, this post is
Caterina, this post is wonderful. it deserves a lot more attention than i am about to give it, but i've got to run for now. i sometimes have a sort of anxiety in conversation, thinking, "which way do i go?" i have lots of stories, and i'm sort of a natural story-teller. if i hear anything in a story of yours that evokes an experience of mine, i will share it, and draw it out, and seek to bridge that connection. it's two things in one (likely more than that): on the one hand i am saying, "Yes! I know how you are feeling in this story you are telling me! I can recognize the feel of it and show you that I have felt something similar." and then i tell my story and ask if it feels in line, if it feels in tune with the other's experience. there is such an excitement in that moment, when the other hears my story and says, "Yes! You understand!" and that excitement is returned unto me in the second part: on the other hand, i am seeking the recognition i am offering. "This is my experience, and I can see that you have had a similar experience, so you can recognize what I feel in my story, yes?" and the excitement goes back and forth between us.
sometimes it is not so easy, and i don't draw any of those connections, and i don't have somewhere to go. sometimes then i just listen, sort of, "I do not know this experience, but it is your experience, and I want to know it, so I will listen." it's hard to listen like that. it's all sorts of attentiveness i've still got to learn.
there's some big kind of courage in saying, "im frightened," or, "i'm disturbed," or the even huger courage needed sometimes to say, "i do not know." because sometimes that is true, and when it is it can be most terrifying. but you, Caterina, have been quite present in your posts; as i read this post it seems you are indeed doing what you ask yourself to do. one cannot share all of oneself, especially not in one post, or one conversation -- yet this somehow does not remove the possibility for honesty and intimacy. if it did we'd be in some trouble as far as relationship is concerned. it's an evolution. it makes me think of a small part of a conversation i had, which i will render fairly differently than the way it actually went:
"I don't think I am healthy enough for a stable relationship yet."
"I'm not sure you'll get there through avoiding and denying relationship. And anyway, I've got a hell of a lot to learn, too. It's all practice."
there's that word of mine again, practice. It's all practice. practice for what? practice for this! this moment! this moment is the practice for which i've been practicing. i feel like Goldmund from Hesse's novel, who needed the entirety of his previous experience to share one night as truly, deeply, utterly, as he did. and yet that wasn't the last night of his life... it just became part of his previous experience, all of which he needed to share...
so as i was saying, it feels to me that you have shared much of yourself on this blog, not only through the presence of your responding, but also through stories, and now through this reflexion you share with us. and there is much being shared about which i'm sure i can tell many stories, and there's also much being shared to which i may just have to listen -- as our communication continues, and as i re-read this post of yours over the next few days. through both i grow.
and so, after all this typing (finally have to end the post or i'll be late!!), i have a question for you.
"I guess I am feeling like I'd like to share more about my personal story, but I don't know which story to tell or why I would tell any specific story. I would want the sharing to arise naturally, out of the desire to share a particular aspect of me, but I do not see those aspects unless I go looking for them and then I create them in the looking!"
when you shared, for example, your story about Ant Lou-- did it arise naturally? it sure felt like it did, or at the least that the telling flowed naturally. i only ask because i feel, as you yourself point out, you have shared and shared thus far! though what a cool challenge in the face of that, to say there is a deeper place of sharing to go to, a place i hadn't recognized until after all these weeks of sharing... and now i need to go there, and i'm not sure if i can...
i will return to this post of yours many times, and look within for this deeper place of sharing. again, my gratitude.
James, I have to run too!
" there is a deeper place of sharing to go to, a place i hadn't recognized until after all these weeks of sharing... and now i need to go there,"
yes, because before I didn't need to go, and then the opening opened on its own because "love needs time" and the need, the question, arose, and it was so simple, just to brush up, as Om put it, like a cat, against the soft edges of that gaze which was my own directed and inspired by an intimacy I felt in Noah's post. In our continual unfolding, an uneven undulating unfurling and curling, winding sometimes exploding sometimes landing, there is always more. I love the need that guides this process, my your very personal need, however it is felt or expressed in our honesty in this moment.
And yes the story of Lou arose very naturally. Ah, Lou.
And yes I have shared very much of myself! Thank you for seeing!
Did you like how I used your dream woman in my response to Om's Rilke Birthday Party in order to understand the nature of thinking? I totally made my own projections, but everyone knows their mine because my name is at the bottom of the post! ;p
xoxoxo
return to the mirror
this brings me to the early days of the blog, when i had an interaction with my own reflection! well over a month ago Noah had a post titled, What Is It All About Anyway?, which sparked lots of great discussion, including a fun few posts about the mirror of relationship.
in one of my posts on that page i wrote, "if we recognize it as a reflective experience and see ourselves in the Other this will be an experience of love." i did see your use of my dream, and i quite liked it! and the reason i bring up this quote of mine (other than an excuse to draw newer bloggers attentions back to those earlier discussions) is because when i read the end of your post i thought, "of course they were your own projections!" thinking back to discussions about the mirror-ness of the world.
i'm quite glad to see your projections in my dream... i'll tell another story to explain why i'm so glad (and, in fact, grateful! i'm so grateful when on this site! i always wonder if my use of the word is getting tedious, but it's always a new gratitude!!!)
i used to greatly dislike letting other people read my poetry, because it felt like they would never read it the right way. there were ways of connecting the lines, ways of reading through punctuation and line break, ways of stressing certain syllables... the little affectations that naturally come out when i read a poem of mine. then i began pushing myself a little to let others read my poetry sometimes, and eventually engaged in a few relationships in which i would trade poems back and forth between people and we'd all read our own and each other's and so on. it grew interesting to see how one person would read my stilted grammar in 'the arctic wind', or a certain way i split up the lines in another poem, and so on. still a bit annoying when i felt they didn't get it right, but at least interesting. well, i think this practice is finally getting me somewhere, because last night i wrote out one of my poems (from memory!) and asked someone to read it to me, thrilled to hear the different ways she would follow the changes of mood, to experience the words through her lips and her unique accentuation... i closed my eyes with a wide grin on my face and: she read it just like i do! she hadn't seen the poem before, or heard it, so i guess there's just something in there that leads both of us through a similar vocal path. it's almost as though i've given my dream to you, as though you dreamt my dreaming, and now i have both my own experience of the dream, and yours. what a thing to share, and what a way to share it.
Amen to that, James! (and a question for Om)
You just expressed exactly what I was feeling, specifically with respect to the dream I shared. I feel that I have dreamed it through all your responses, and that you have dreamed it through me. Each time I dream it in a new way and reassemble its images into new interpretations and meanings. In so dreaming, I find that I better understand myself and that I better understand You, who projected those meanings onto the dream and deepened my insight through relationship.
I never really understand a poem until I share it.
It really is starting to seem that this understanding is one act of "looking into looking," to borrow your beautiful poetry James; that turning toward the other and turning toward the self is one act of turning, one act of recognition.
I remember when I first read an excerpt of "I and Thou" by Martin Buber nearly, two years ago, and how it seemed so right; how I apprehended its truth but didn't really understand, didn't experience it. But here, in this space of blog, his words are coming a live to me in a deeper way. They have been guiding me toward the beginnings of this understanding for two years, and I have been growing towards them.
"When Thou is spoken the speaker has nothing for his object. For where there is a thing there is another thing. Every It is bounded by others; It exists only through being bounded by others. But when Thou is spoken there is no thing. Thou has no bounds. When thou is spoken the speaker has no thing; he has indeed nothing. But he takes his stand in relation."
I have mostly thought about this on a spiritual level. But now I am thinking about it more psychologically.
I read (on a psychological level) that the speaker (I), in speaking Thou, recognizes the other as subject, and he himself becomes subject too. The subjects "co-arise" in this act of true relation. Without this recognition, we are things, its, objects.
My question, Om (or anyone else who is familiar with Buber's thought), is this: If I understand I and Thou as subjects in this relationship, what does it mean that Thou has no bounds? On a spiritual level, this seems somewhat intuitive to me. But on a psychological level, we have been talking about how the self needs boundaries and containment in order to grow and express and expand. I have been understanding that boundary here to be the "stand in relation." How would you integrate Buber's language with the rest of the discussion about recognition and boundary of the self as subject?
HI NOAH, YOUR QUESTION ABOUT BUBER
But when Thou is spoken there is no thing. Thou has no bounds. When thou is spoken the speaker has no thing; he has indeed nothing. But he takes his stand in relation."
I-Thou is such an unnecessarily clumsy and vague term, and I'm sorry to say it just doesn’t resonate with me (I think the translation of Buber has a lot to do with this). The meaning behind it, however, is divine. For Buber, in the beginning was the relation. Relation is intersubjective space as the ground of consciousness (where all manifestation takes places). What I understand of Buber’s Thou is that it is thought-like (as opposed to thing-like) and, as such, exists only within intersubjective space as interconnectedness. It is a philosophical (though Buber himself would disagree), not psychological term, though it obviously includes and influences how the psychological expresses itself. Thou is not bounded because it is consciousness itself reaching into relation.
I -Thou
Noah, my sense of Thou, like Om's is about the divine. Thou to me is that which is boundless, expansive, and full of possibility.
My sense of Thou
is that the boundary is my awareness.
My awareness is a measure of my empathy and understanding.
dang
somebody send me to bed!!
ACTION DOES WHAT ACTION IS: MAGGOT THERAPY AND OUR INHERITED DYS
So we don’t lose looking inside Arnold’s looking, I’d like to reflect on action for a moment. Maggot Therapy (also known as Maggot Debridement Therapy (MDT), larval therapy, larva therapy, or larvae therapy) is the “introduction of live, disinfected maggots or fly larvae into non-healing skin or soft tissue wounds of a human or other animal. This practice was widely used before the discovery of antibiotics, as it serves to clean the dead tissue within a wound in order to promote healing.” This is not a metaphor :)
By the end of the last century, more than one hundred million people suffered violent deaths at the hands of fellow human beings. We know the stories well and they are feeding inside our looking: Stalin, Hitler, Khmer Rouge, the Spanish civil war. What is most insane is that this mass capacity for destruction is constituted in world history, defines, fuels and shapes its very consciousness. And my sense is that Arnold is telling us in protest, “Please don’t NOT SEE, and fail to act by mistaking your words for the act.” (Please correct me if I’m wrong in this formulation). No one, I imagine, would argue against this. In fact, Noah’s courageous act of creating this blog can be defined as a therapeutic action against violence. But, how?
This is a therapeutic doing because it flowers out of an awakened doing, an awakening spawned out of a deep psychological and spiritual awareness and intuition that consciousness IS, always was and will be, as the unmanifested; and yet, consciousness gives form, indeed, is form, though it was never born and will not die. Form and formlessness interpenetrate, or inter-are as inter-being. In its manifested form, consciousness enters time and space, so to speak, and “inters” an evolutionary process; not limited to biological evolution, but supervenes biology as an evolution of consciousness. The human being, human consciousness, or mind, might very well be but another stage in this evolution. Deep observation says this is so. Because we have such little awareness of consciousness as Pure Awareness, we could say we are all in a dream, much like Noah’s, maggots and all, or like James’, love and all. But, our dreams do not dismiss or deny the “other” facts of disease, the disease of consciousness in one of its higher forms as human being living in the world, nor should we dissolve into the dissolving of dream as a metaphysical avoidance of suffering and action.
Eric Fromm, in his `Anatomy of Human Destructiveness,’ stated that in order to stop destruction, we first have to understand it. Without understanding, we will continue to destroy, with the same hatred that we are attempting to battle. The philosopher, Santayana, said, “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." And (I think) Krishnamurti, “If you do not draw from what is within, what is within will destroy you, if you draw forth what is within, what is within will save you.” These teachers are not talking about inaction, they’re talking about a certain type of interior action, which includes language acts and acts of intuitive that speak to an epistemology which is part of overt action. Indeed, overt action is the by-product of interior action, which is called deep introspection. It is an “awakened doing,” as Eckhart Tolle describes it. The key word here is “alignment,” the yoga of aligning intention with outer purpose in order to transform suffering into wisdom and joy.
And so, back to Maggot Therapy. In order to outwardly act in a strong, clear way that will remedy the maggot disease of mind, we must go into the maggot mind itself (at first, metaphorically), with compassion and a penetrating intelligence, with all its language-games, with the aim of understanding the very sources of hatred and violence. And we must use all the creative brilliance of language we have, in all its metaphorical omniscience, because, as I said in GRAMMAR LESSON: INTERDEPENDENT CLAUSE, “Language, in its musical intrinsicality, is the form human consciousness takes as meaning. Language is interconnected, or rather, reflects the interconnectedness of all beings human, and so is ceaselessly reminding us we belong to one family.”
We will not stop this train to Auschwitz until we do, no matter how much outward action we take.
this seems right, Mr Effortless
Your vocabulary makes my head spin, but the connection between in and out feels very right. (am I contradicting myself?)
LOL! MY GRATITUDE FOR YOUR EFFORT, ARNOLD
and you are clearly not contradicting yourself! Thank you!
MODELS, METAPHORS, MYTHS, ANALOGIES AND OTHER THOMISMS: THE HAND
I was looking in my conceptual toolbag today and found linguistic widgets to wet my whistle. These so-called widgets are bridges of a kind that give my mind access to things I cannot yet express or name, including my self and mind which, even if I spend the rest of my life looking, are no where to be found. Many feeling states fall into this category as well, as can easily be determined by the simple question, “What are you feeling?” Responses to this question range from a “deer-in-the-headlight” stare to wonderfully and cleverly wrought metaphors: “it’s like trying to breathe or speak under water.” These widgets order my reality in many ways and are like hands that hold my terror. Dreams are like that, too. They not only mitigate the anxiety, fear, or even terror of change, they bridge the seemingly abyssal gap between mind and contact with the world by proffering meaning. Though ultimately illusory (and the delusions which support them), these meanings carve out imaginal space from which to cultivate understanding, and therefore, wisdom, about consciousness itself. So, seeking an objective correctness regarding what a dream means or is, is actually fallacious; that is, it’s irrelevant. What is relevant is the usefulness of an interpretation to the dreamer in his objective of gaining deeper insight into the meanings of his life, in the here and now, from the past, and the direction he might be heading towards future meanings.
The dream itself is an analogical resource in communicating consciousness, a formulation, if you will, that is a middle way between equivocation (meaning without any resemblance) and univocality (language that conveys literal meaning in a one-to-one match). It also provides a middle path between negation and positive content (proof of God by positive attributes). The problem that one must address when talking about dreams is the same problem when talking about anything interior (e.g., feelings, ideas, thoughts): language in these contexts cannot be used literally!!! (This is what the theologian, Thomas Aquinas, said about God: 'It seems that no word can be used literally of God.' The key when using analogical language, metaphor or myth is the risk of reification, that is, taking language literally or collapsing it into a logical grammar that is clear and determinate in order to fit into conventional reality. The beauty of language is in its very loftiness, expansiveness and capacity to outcontext embodiment, to ride the very wings of meaning to its conceptual horizons.
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"“What are you feeling?” Responses to this question range from a “deer-in-the-headlight” stare to wonderfully and cleverly wrought metaphors: “it’s like trying to breathe or speak under water.”"
funny that my dreams should offer my solution to this metaphorical difficulty while metaphorically representing my growing ability to answer this question more openly, directly, and honestly.
i've dreamt several times of breathing underwater, though i've never had dreams ABOUT breathing under water. for example, i've heard people say they had dreams about being able to fly, that is to say, the dream was the experience of being able to fly. rather the breathing under water has been one of the conditions for the rest of the experience.
in one dream in which i breathed under water, i was in a big university-campus space, and i interacted with various people from my life in different areas of the campus, each person representing various things to me; and at one point i was sitting on a boat that slowly but steadily filled with sand and water, so that i became half buried in the sand and then overtaken by the murky, salty water. this sounds terrifying, but i was very calm and even soothed, it was (to my surprise) such a peaceful feeling, and the breathing under the water was just an extension of this. the water drained from the boat and i peacefully returned to the rest of the people on it (none of whom had gone under). it felt like a first breath, or something of that sort.
so when, last night, i had a dream in which i landed in a river and spent some time under before swimming to the surface, i noticed the refreshing feeling of being under the cool, crystal clear water. i wasn't breathing under the water, but i also wasn't holding my breath. i was just sort of existing there, and playfully moving around beneath the surface before deciding i would break back through to the air.
my feelings are becoming clearer, and the water and everything else becomes so much clearer with them.
James, your dream
I was reminded of a story that my teacher told me. He was on a rafting trip when he was thrown into the rapids. He is a very strong swimmer but the water was too powerful for him to find his way out. He was in a total panic but when he accepted that fighting the water would not help, he surrendered and accepted he was going to die. He stopped swimming and let his arms rise above his head. A few seconds later someone grabbed his arms and pulled him to the surface.
EMILY, THIS REMINDS ME
of Alan Watts, who once said (regarding Zen), "When you try to sink, you float, when you try to float, you sink." Though I don't envy your teacher's experience, I do love that space of freedom that comes with that level of surrender. How rare it is.
JAMES FINDING JAMES FEELING JAMES FEELING FEELING
JAMES FINDING JAMES FEELING JAMES FEELING FEELING IN THE COOL, CLEAR, CRYSTAL WATER OF DREAM
Your dream experience and the thought process of reflection you describe immediately following recalls for me a scene from Eugene O’Neill’s `Long Day’s Journey Into Night,’ where the son, Edmund, decribes a peak mystical experience but which, upon deeper reading of the entire text, we find that mind’s mergeance with nature (a glimpse into nature mysticism-- gross-level oneness), and felt deeply in the body, lost its mystical power (or sustainability) as Edmund re-emerged in the “world” of chaos and conflict. Though, at that moment he translates on the bowsprit that he was, as caterina beautifully expresses it, a “figure of the messenger of the Gods who had by then become a figure of the act of interpretation or penetration, able to penetrate what is impenetrable to human understanding,” he was not able to “make it meaningful [and] translatable to human consciousness” as an evolving, relational being. This is the difference between peak spiritual experiences, or states and enduring spiritual traits of a more permanent adaptation. The enduring states, of course, require years of sustained spiritual practice and are still not guaranteed :( Nonetheless, this is exquisite prose.
"I lay on the bowsprit [of a boat], facing astern, with the water foaming into spume under
me, the masts with every sail white in the moonlight, towering high above me. I became
drunk with the singing rhythm of it, and for a moment I lost myself—actually lost my life. I
was set free! I dissolved in the sea, became white sails and flying spray, became beauty
and rhythm, became moonlight and the ship and the high dim-starred sky! I belonged,
without past and future, within peace and unity and a wild joy, within something greater
than my own life, or the life of Man, to Life itself! To God, if you want to put it that way.
Then another time, on the American Line, when I was lookout on the crow’s nest in the
dawn watch. A calm sea, that time. Only a lazy groundswell and a slow drowsy roll of
the ship. The passengers asleep and none of the crew in sight. No sound of Man. Black
smoke pouring from the funnels behind and beneath me. Dreaming, not keeping lookout,
feeling alone, and above, and apart, watching the dawn creep like a painted dream over
the sky and sea which slept together. Then the moment of ecstatic freedom came. The
peace, the end of the quest, the last harbor, the joy of belonging to a fulfillment beyond
men’s lousy, pitiful, greedy fears and hopes and dreams! And several other times in my
life, when I was swimming far out, or lying alone on the beach, I have had the same
experience. Became the sun, the hot sand, green seaweed anchored to a rock, swaying
in the tide. Like a saint’s vision of beatitude. Like the veil of things as they seem drawn
back by an unseen hand. For a second you see—and seeing the secret, are the secret.
For a second there is meaning! Then the hand lets the veil fall and you are alone, lost in
the fog again, and you stumble toward nowhere, for no good reason!" (p.153).
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Can be said that this year China's shoe, "after suffering", first of all raw materials rose in 2008, the new labor law enforcement to bring the shoe-making costs, our rough statistics, the overall shoe costs about about 20%; In addition the external environment on the system Shoes Adversely affect exports: first, by the financial crisis, U.S. and Europe the major export market, weak demand, decreased consumer purchasing power, leading to decreased domestic exports of footwear enterprises; Second, some of the major exports to the Government adopted a number of detrimental China's shoe exports, measures such as the EU continues to export to China Leather shoes Impose high anti-dumping duties, the current into the sunset review stage, most recently the Russian government to fight the "gray customs clearance", the Chinese shoes have been seized in Russia; Third, since the second half of 2008, Renminbi Exchange rate remained stable, while India, Indonesia and Brazil, major competitors such as exporting countries there was a substantial currency depreciation, is not conducive to China's shoe exports. Throughout the unpredictable situation in the international market, we have no reasons to complain, we only think of ways the face of difficulties to overcome it. Current is important to reflect on why the shoe companies or the traditional manufacturing industries will experience so much difficulty? The cause? Only to find their missing, keep fit, in order to avoid making the same mistakes, be able to withstand more storms the international market. Higher value added products enhance the international competitiveness of the market In fact, the Russian "gray customs clearance" and the anti-dumping case against Chinese shoes in the international road for just only a beginning. With Chinese shoes enterprises to expand overseas markets, anti-dumping and other trade barriers to come sooner or later, not this year, Russia, the European Union, there may be next year, the United States. Now all kinds of trade barriers, although to a very reasonable, but the Chinese shoe-making enterprises to increase independent innovation, enhance the industrial sector, improve product quality and technology content, and to strengthen brand building. Pressure, could be developed from this perspective, perhaps the gray customs clearance and anti-dumping is a good thing. Not have a strong brand to non-competitive advantages are often hidden behind the weaknesses, strengths of the other side is extremely deadly disadvantage. This is the just-concluded "think weeks," the meeting, senior management of my group said a word, I tell them to always have a sense of crisis and urgency, because the are in the international market, as if into mysterious virgin forest, surrounded by the eyes of many carnivore staring at you, so you must stay sober, keep themselves strong. This year, we proposed to build a science and technology Aokang , An increase in R & D function of some shoes to raise value-added leather products, such as now Listing Damping shoes and breathable shoes sold in the market prices of the shoes do not feature higher 200-500 dollars, which is the value of science and technology. The export of such shoes in the process of receiving more foreign welcome. Before the Joint Zhejiang University, and other units we developed a set amount of foot Shoes machine This machine not only meet the individual needs of consumers, but also to Aokang achieve "zero inventory" management, enhance the level of its information, product innovation capability and rapid response capacity on the market. I think that spending money on R & D is necessary, I think we better than Italian shoes made in China and other countries even worse than they are better. September 5 last year, Shanghai International Footwear Conference, the United States, the President talked about the retail phrase, now in the minds of consumers around the world do not feel the shoes in China are relatively poor. This concept is now beginning to change, and I think that Aokang and China and impact of corporate brand can go out, now is the time. Against the international market risk with a low-cost Japan's Toyota worthy of our Chinese manufacturing companies to learn. Toyota has a unique corporate culture is "the dry towel squeeze water", which is a cost-conscious, it created Toyota's lean management and 5S on-site management, into an international big business. Fine footwear production process waste everywhere, multiplied by a large production base, will cause a huge waste. In response to the status of the cost increase, Aokang since last year been using "new tactics", one after another new office set up costs, technology transfer institutions such as the Ministry and the implementation of "lean production" approach, each process from start to develop new production standards, strict cost control and reduce losses. View more Industry News>>> Nike Air Force 1 Retro Basketball Shoe
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Have you ever gone out shopping with your friends, or whoever, and while you're out you find an amazing pair of shoes, the shoes that you know you just couldn't possibly live without? The thing is, what do you do when they don't have your size? If you say, "forget it, I don't need them anyway." You need to turn around, go back to the store, and buy those bad boys! I'm sure this has happened to about 95% of women. It always seems as though the perfect shoe for you is always one-half or even one size too small. Or maybe you purchase the perfect pair of shoes, and when you get home, you realize they don't fit. Well, have I got news for you. There are ways around this problem. There are many techniques in which one can actually "stretch" their shoes. You'll almost NEVER have to worry about not finding the right size shoe again!I am going to take the time to help all of the women, who have this problem mentioned above, to "stretch" their shoes. 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Then, place a baggie inside of each shoe, and make sure that they fit the inside of the shoe completely. Following this, you place the shoes in the freezer, and wait until the ice is frozen, or just overnight. After you remove the shoes from the freezer, you must let the ice thaw before removing the baggies in order to avoid ruining your shoes. The idea of this is that the water turns into ice, which expands your shoe.The method of using damp newspaper is quite different but very easy. You will need to scrunch up wet newspaper, and shove as many pieces into your shoe as possible. Make sure that you do not deform the shape of your shoe. Wait for the newspaper to dry, and then remove it. This is very simple.The next at-home remedy involves using oats and grain. This method really only works on leather boots; however, you need to fill the boot with oats or grain, and pour enough water in to cover the oats or grain. The idea of this method is that the oats or grain will inflate overnight. However, I would not recommend this method on your favorite pair of expensive leather boots.This next option is a home-made shoe stretching spray. This concoction is made up of fifty percent rubbing alcohol and fifty percent water. It would be best to use a spray bottle, and spray the inside of the shoe. Then, it is recommended to put on a pair of socks and wear the shoe for about twenty minutes while still wet. This should stretch the shoe out pretty well.The last at-home remedy, which is sort of weird, is using a potato. Who would have thought? But this remedy is almost the simplest of all of the above mentioned. All you have to do is peel the potato (one that is large enough to create a bulge in the shoe) and let it sit over night.If you haven't caught on yet, there is an increasingly commonality on the methods of stretching the shoes. It is quite easy to see that all you need is something that will expand and hold position, while being inside your shoe for a decent amount of time. But also, besides these home remedies, there are still some other options for stretching your shoes. These include using an actual shoe stretcher (on leather shoes), just being patient, and last but not least, go to a professional to have the shoe stretched.Shoe stretchers are made of wood, and are designed in the shape of a foot. Most shoe stretches have adjustments that help with stretching the shoes. Also, shoe stretches are able to adjust not only the length, but also the width too.The idea of just being patient, and going slow with stretching your shoe is pretty much the same idea as wearing your shoes in. It is a known fact that you can't go anywhere and buy a shoe that will fit your foot just perfectly, unless of course you're having them custom made. All shoes need time to adjust themselves and mold themselves to the exact shape of your foot, so be patient.Finally, the last method of shoe stretching is to just visit a professional shoe stretcher. 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Do your shoes matter for your prom? Yes, they do! In fact, the right shoes will make this evening amazing. If you select the wrong shoes, on the other hand, you could be risking a number of problems. They make look strange. They may make your height wrong and they could even cause you pain every time you step onto the dance floor. Instead of allowing this to happen, take the time to purchase the very best shoes possible for your prom. It does not have to be difficult to do so, either. Finding the perfect prom dress is only half the battle. Now it's time to accessorize. The right shoes, the right jewelry, and the right hair accessories will complete your look and make you standout on prom night. And speaking of standing out, have you thought about your prom night shoes yet? If you are having trouble finding your perfect prom shoe, here are some helpful tips that are sure to complete your look. One of the best decisions you can make for prom shoes is getting the right size. If the shoe is too large, they will be hard to dance in. If the shoe is too small, you will spend a great deal of time sitting because it is too painful to walk. In either case, your evening can be ruined. To get the right size shoe, have a professional fitting done. Most high quality shoe stores will do these for you. They take measurements of your feet and make shoe recommendations for you. This is the best tool to use as you search for the right shoe. The next step in the process is ensuring that you get the right look. Start with knowing what you want. For example, be sure to purchase the right size heal. Is your date taller than you? Is he the same size as you? Choosing the right heal can help you to feel comfortable with your date. Also, look at the style of the shoe. You may want something that works well with your prom dress. The cut and style of the shoe are incredibly important to completing the look for your prom. Do not underestimate the importance of the style of the shoe! Get a comfortable heel-height. You're in luck, this year there is really no standard height for heels. Don't be afraid to go with a shoe that is comfortable. If you can't walk in heels, you can easily get away with comfy and stylish Ballet flats or low heeled satin sandal thongs this prom season. If balance isn't a concern of yours, you can really turn heads in some deliciously flirtatious rhinestone-sparked high heel platform shoes or daringly sexy strappy sandals with criss-cross details. The rule of thumb for prom night shoes that look and feel spectacular is to pick a heel height that's comfortable for you. There's more to the heels than height. You have to remember that height is not the only factor in making your heels more comfortable. The shape and width of the heel as well as the shape of the shoe play a big role in your balance and stability when walking and especially when dancing. Keep in mind that the narrower the heel, the less stability you will have. If you only plan to wear the heels for photos, it won't matter much, but if you're not used to heels at all, you have two choices. The first choice is to pick a pretty shoe with a chunkier heel, or a flashy and funky wedge heel that gives you a bit more stability. Metallic Shine and Glitz Metallic shoes are definitely in this prom season, especially if you're wearing a dress with glitzy glam. You should find some gorgeous metallic and glitter prom shoes that will set off your dress perfectly, but be sure that you've got the right dress for a shiny metallic shoe. A metallic sequined shoe with wishbone straps could be absolutely ideal if your dress has some glitter of its own, but could very well upstage a dress that doesn't have the same shimmer and flair. About Author Read About UGG Fashion pink bags also Read about UGG Paisley Boots and UGG Classic short black Boots 5825 This article is free for republishing Published at UGG Fashion black Boots 5218 UGG Classic Cardy Boots
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When selecting children's shoes special care should be given. Poor fitting shoes happen to be the most common cause of foot pains for children and even teenagers. They tend to grow out of their shoes but still wear the poor fitting shoes. Many parents that have children who outgrow their shoes find out that the cheap shoes serve their purpose since the child will most likely never wear them out. When selecting these shoes, parents can feel in the shoes and feel if there happens to be anything that might cause discomfort. Because a child's foot is always growing, their feet need special attention to help prevent deformities that could cause problems later in life. According to the American Medical Association as much as eighty percent of American children have some kind of foot defect that if not properly treated will lead to the need for plantar fasciitis shoes and other types of orthopedic shoes. So when selecting your child's shoe it is wise to leave some "growing room" to accommodate growth, but not too large that there is inadequate support or rubbing. Parents needs to watch for wearing on one spot, this may show that the shoe is not fitting correctly or is too large. It's not a good idea to pass the worn shoes down to the next child because the childs shoe has molded themselves into the foot of the original wearer. You need to examine the shoe for good quality and workmanship. Pay attention to signs for poor and careless workmanship. Make sure on the upper part there are no loose threads or seams with rough cut edges on the shoe. Check the sole stitch to ensure it is even and does not run off the edge. Remember, cheap shoes are not always a good deal when they are uncomfortable or provide inadequate support. While shoes that are comfortable tend to cost more, the improvements in quality of life make the additional cost insignificant. You should never judge durability of the shoe by the thickness of the outer sole. The durability depends on the workmanship's quality and the use of quality materials. It is important to ensure a long life for your shoes you need to properly take care of them. However if you look at your wardrobe your shoes are the most neglected part of it. It is wise that when you purchase new shoes and that you polish them with a good polish before you wear them. You can lengthen the life of your shoes by alternating shoes and wearing a pair one day and another pair the next day. Every now and then your shoes should be cleaned. By doing this it will remove dirt and other foreign matter. UGG Bailey Button Triplet Boots brown
The Ugg Boot or just Uggs is a generic term for a style of sheepskin boot which has been produced in Australia and New Zealand for almost 200 years. Originally the were called "Ug or Ugh Boots" which is short for "Ugly". However an American Importer (Koolaburra) presented the idea that the name Ugg comes from the way that the boot "hugs" the wearer's foot and legs. However because of trademark issues, Uggs are more often than not known in the retail world simply as Sheepskin Boots.Originally in Australia and New Zealand this comfortable and warm footwear was being worn by social groups such as Bogans, westies and Bevans in public. However, most other Australians would only wear them around the house or at the most just on a trip to the local shop. The boots certainly became popular during the 1960's with surfers and competitive swimmers as they kept them warm whilst out of the water.It is thought that many popular Australian actors/actresses have probably being wearing Ugg boots in private for some time, it was only when Pamela Anderson started wearing a pair that she had acquired in Australia to help keep her legs warm during breaks in filming the popular television show Baywatch, that it is thought people in the USA started to take an interest in these boots.However, since 2003 the boot has become very fashionable in America because of the marketing of the product by an American Company called Ugg Australia (a section of the Deckers Outdoor Corporation). The Ugg Australia Brand was created by Brian Smith who began importing to the USA in the late 1970's. He then sold the company to Deckers Outdoors in 1995. Actresses such as Kate Hudson (pictured wearing them on a poster for Raising Helen in 2004) and Sienna Miller seem to have increased their popularity. This style of footwear has now become a major product in most major department stores and shoes stores across the globe. Certainly some of the more popular brands available are the Emu, Koolaburra, UGG and Warmbat.However, in Canada it was found that the Ugg boot has become extremely popular with girls at many of the Universities in Ontario as well as on many US campuses.Although these boots are available worldwide generally in sizes that fit both men and women, and the styles available are pretty much identical it seems more women than men are currently wearing them, especially in the US. Because of this colours such as lavender, pink and pastels have been introduced which specially target the female market.However, there have been a number of issues that have arisen over the trademark of the Ugg Boot and for some time the trademark "ugh-boot" was owned by the Deckers Outdoor Corporation in Australia and because of their also holding additional international trademarks relating to the product they were able to limit the term's use in Australia and because of this they were able to successful sue other Ugg Importers (Koolaburra most notably) for using the term.The Deckers versions of Ugg Australia, Emu, Old Friend and Aussie Dogs are now made in China (some models are sill being made in New Zealand). However, those produced by Koolaburra and exported to the USA are still made in Australia.Because of the US trademark laws you will find that many Australian and US manufacturers who produce this style of footwear are now marketing them as "Sheepskin Boots" rather than "Ugg Boots".But in January 2006 the owners of Uggs-N-Rugs (Australia) were able to have the Deckers Outdoor Corporations Australian Trademark for Ugh-boot removed from the Australian Trademarks Registry. This resulted in the decision that the words "Ug Boots", "Ugg Boots" and "Ugh Boots" could be interchangeable and were a generic term for "Sheepskin Boots". However, there was a large amount of controversy over this matter as many Australians and New Zealanders were opposed to having "Ugg Boots" trademarked. Allison Thompson webmaster of several sites a work at home mum now living in Spain. For further information on this product please go to UGG Classic short brown Boots 9822 Article Source: ugg boots on sale UGG Fox Fur gray auratus Boots 5825
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Boots are an essential part of any man or woman's wardrobe. The huge range of styles and fashions means there is no excuse not to own at least a couple of pairs. There are knee high boots and there are ankle boots and various shapes and sizes in between. Sheepskin lined boots are particularly in vogue at the moment and with an unusually cold winter they are ideally worn with any sort of clothing. Boots need not just be for the winter as there are some highly fashionable designs that look sensational all year around. Long slim and elegant boots on a woman with good legs can be very eye catching and this look is often used by marketing men when trying to promote manufactured goods as diverse as new cars to sporting events. The diversity of designs over the age of boots has been staggering. If you take the definition of a boot as being a shoe which fits completely over the whole ankle and can be short or higher than the knee, then there is evidence of the boot existing in ancient Greek times. Just take a look at one particular brand like ugg boots and you will see the diversity of design. Make sure they are genuine ugg boots as like any good quality product there may be fakes coming onto the market. The word 'boot' is one of those words which can have many different meanings. You 'boot' up your computer and you 'put the boot in'. Those are just two examples of boot other than the obvious one of footwear. In the Wild West, many a cowboy ended up on boot hill. The origin of this euphemism for a graveyard was that a man, who died violently and most probably by a gun bullet, would still be wearing his boots. In any old church or cathedral in the United Kingdom, there are often clues to the way a man died from the position of his carved likeness upon his tomb. Throughout the time of the great crusades many knights killed in battle were returned to their home and honoured with spectacular tombs. If the knight is depicted with his sword in his hands and his boots on then he had been killed in battle. If his boots rest on top of a dog then this indicates he died peacefully at his home. There are countless other examples of methods used to describe the way a man died. Sometimes, when an old soldier dies, his horse is led by a member of his regiment to his place of rest. In the stirrups on the horse, the old soldier's boots are reversed with the soles of the boots pointing upwards. This practice began appropriately enough with the funeral procession of The Duke of Wellington, a man who famously designed his own type of boot. ? Nike Mercurial Vapor Superfly 2 FG Firm Ground Soccer Cleats Black White
Nike Mercurial Vapor Superfly 2 Astro Turf Ronaldo Safari Soccer Cleats White Total Orange Black and feet have long been associated with good luck. Babies who came out feet first are considered magical in some cultures. And it is thought the concept of shoes as good luck may be related to the concept that the rich had nice shoes as a class privilege, so people used shoes as a token of wealth and luck. One old custom places an old shoe outside your door before leaving on a long journey for good luck. Throwing shoes after someone leaving on travels was also a good luck symbol, which is related not only to throwing confetti and rice at weddings, but also tying shoes to a car's bumper as the couple drives away. One ritual says a shoe thrown over a house will land pointing in the direction fate will take you in shortly. And wish craft tells folks to put gems in their shoes to find treasure It is said to be good luck if shoes fall onto their soles. Tripping over a Adidas F50 adizero TRX FG Firm Ground Soccer Cleats Orange Black White is considered bad luck. Some believe you need to put your right shoe on first and take it off first, before the left foot, to avoid bad luck. Some example on players of football, hockey, cricket and other games that we ever use to see . Pakistan's cricket player Shoab Akhtar generally use to play with his old shoes by which he has performed well.? One tradition says putting your left foot on the ground first in the morning is bad luck. Some say walking around with one shoe on and one off will bring bad luck for a year. Or that putting your shoes on the wrong feet by accident foretells an accident to the feet will occur soon. Some say not to place your shoes higher than your head while in bed, and that tying shoes together and handing them on a nail is bad luck. It is a bad omen for actors to put shoes on a chair in their dressing room. It was long thought that you inherited the karma and life energy of those whose shoes you wore, and thus it was considered bad luck to accept someone's Nike CTR360 , as you may inherit their troubles and ills as well. But it was also thought you could inherit good karma and good luck through a successful person's shoes too. The phrase "following in your father's footsteps" was based on the practice of bequeathing your shoes to your kin upon death, as shoes were expensive, and your son literally walking in your shoes, leaving the same footprints. Sticking a hairpin in a shoe is said to guarantee meeting a good friend. And hanging old shoes up as tokens of good luck on the roof of a house is common. An old shoe is considered good luck charm. Old shoes are also burned to start life anew. Shoelaces took a while to catch on as new fangled things, and were also considered effeminate, so men resisted them at first. But as time wore on, rituals involving shoelaces evolved. It is said if your shoelace comes undone, without being caught on anything to pull it out, your true love is thinking about you at that moment. A broken shoelace came to represent bad luck. And if a right shoe lace came undone, it was good luck, and if the left one came undone, it foresaw bad luck. ? good luck Ravi Vishnoi Adidas F50 adizero TRX FG Firm Ground Soccer Cleats Sliver Orange Black
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