Born into wandering, yes

Born into wandering, yes
though I do not claim beginning.
Only that I am.  I ask.
With the body mind says,

you ask to be dead.  It thinks death
is stone. But it is stone
though it swarms like the flies.
In dreams, travels

through strange woods, between
granite houses, down abandoned
leafy streets skirting
high barbed-wire electric, fencing ash;

and overhears conversations
that vacillate between tongue
and no tongue; and is
the third, listening

to its couched voices lilting
through the dark.  Secretly
I think, it longs to be dead. It waits
overcast because it does not know

its own becoming, does not yet hear
its witness speak: Oh,
that the dying dissolves its death
that the water, stone.

ground

wow. you know, i sort of subtly quoted my favorite poem in a post earlier (i wrote "but where does she fade to?") and here, again, i am reminded of that same poem.

 

It was nearly a girl who went forth
from this joyful union of song and lyre,
and shone so clearly through the veils of her youth,
and made herself a bed within my ear.

 

And slept in me. And all slept inside her sleep:
the trees which had always amazed me,
meadow-deep distances as touchable as skin,
and every astonishment that has ever been.

 

She slept the world. Singing God,
how could you have made her so complete,
she never wanted to be first awake?
See: she rose and slept.

 

Where is her death? O will you find the hidden theme
before your song sings its own grave?
From me-- where does she fade to? still nearly a girl...

 

where is her death? and what is her death; what is its nature? Orpheus's song sings its own grave; your dying dissolves its death as the water, the stone. how beautiful! how absolutely astonishing! in the Chandogya Upanisad, Uddalaka tells his son, śvetaketu, to drop a hunk of salt into a jug of water and leave it that way overnight. in the morning the boy could neither see nor feel the salt, but when he tasted the water, from everywhere in the jug he could taste the salt. ahh-- tat tvam asi! explained Uddalaka, that is how you are! i think, too, of the icebergs being taken by the tides of the southern ocean. these enormous hunks of ice can weigh many tons, and they move rather quickly, being pulled by the enormously powerful tides. when they are pulled over shallower waters, the icebergs drag over the bottom and the result is "ice scour" -- everything on the bottom is destroyed, all of the life disappears... whole boulders are shaved down to smooth surfaces for the iceberg to move on its way. and yet; neither of these are quite right, are they?

 

there is much much here. i will have to return to it. there is so very much.

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Le Loup et le Chien

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doudoune femme</a>Un loup n’avait que les os et la peau,

Tant les chiens faisaient bonne garde.

Ce loup rencontre un dogue aussi puissant que beau,

doudoune homme</a>

Gras, poli, qui s’était fourvoyé par mégarde.

L’attaquer, le mettre en quartiers,

Sire loup l’eût fait volontiers ;  canada goose pas cher</a>

Mais il fallait livrer bataille,

Et le mâtin était de taille

A se défendre hardiment.  doudoune canada goose pas cher</a>

Le loup donc, l’aborde humblement,

Entre en propos, et lui fait compliment

Sur son embonpoint, qu’il admire.

« Il ne tiendra qu’à vous, beau sire,

doudoune moncler pas cher</a>

D’être aussi gras que moi, lui répartit le chien.

Quittez les bois, vous ferez bien :

Vos pareils y sont misérables,

doudoune moncler pas cher</a>

Cancres, hères, et pauvres diables,

Dont la condition est de mourir de faim.

Car quoi ? rien d’assuré ; point de franche lippée ;

doudoune moncler</a>

Tout à la pointe de l’épée.

Suivez moi, vous aurez un bien meilleur destin. »

Le loup reprit : « Que me faudra-t-il faire ?

moncler pas cher</a>

–Presque rien, dit le chien : donner la chasse aux gens

Portant bâtons et mendiants ;

doudoune pas cher</a>

Flatter ceux du logis, à son maître complaire :

Moyennant quoi votre salaire

Sera force reliefs de toutes les façons :

Os de poulets, os de pigeons,

canada goose</a>

Sans parler de mainte caresse. »

Le loup déjà se forge une félicité

canada goose pas cher</a>

Qui le fait pleurer de tendresse

Chemin faisant, il vit le cou du chien pelé.

« Qu’est-ce là ? lui dit-il. – Rien. – Quoi ? rien ? – Peu de chose.

– Mais encor ? – Le collier dont je suis attaché

De ce que vous voyez est peut-être la cause. < doudoune canada goose</a>

– Attaché ? dit le loup : vous ne courez donc pas

Où vous voulez ? – Pas toujours ; mais qu’importe ?

it?

Noah,  I have been puzzling over your poem "Born into wandering, yes" since you posted it.  I want to offer some response, but first I have only a question:  What is the "it" in this poem?

 

I realize  that I am asking you to explain the poem and  that is unfair.  So, I will settle for a little nudge.

it's my maudlin mind

it's my maudlin mind

more please

 That is no answer.  More  please.  It is an honest question.

i regret

that its so confusing (i am still trying to think of a title) but I'm glad you have brought it to my attention as I need to keep working at it (always) but anyway, i am confused myself --this bit of writing sort of came out of a kind meditation on the nature of mind (mine specifically), its obsession with death (in dreams) and my desire to be its witness.  When i said "it" referred to my mind, thats quite literally what i meant.  I really apologize for my dismissive response, that was so unfair (I've been having a disconnected day).  I see why this is so unclear--perhaps when i rewrite it in some other form, i will post its evolution.  process process.  :)   In any case, you also pointed me to a confusion at the start of the poem, where I had convoluted my language (thank you) so I changed two words, and removed one.  I wonder if that might make it smoother. 

Margaret Truman

I know about obsession with death.  That is where I am these days.  It is odd how pleasure (love for my partner and love of my experiences every day) brings me back to death (sorrow of anticipating loss),  I want to write more about this soon.

 

The death of Margaret Truman, who was 20 years older than I am, reminded me again that although I am definitely not dead, it is out there in front of me and there is no avoiding it.  I cannot get my arms around this.   I want to live fully while I am, but iI have not negotiated these waters.  Meditation is an answer I know.

True relaxation is the answer

Hi Arnold, I was thinking about you last night in my yoga class. Last Night's topic/lecture was about true relaxation. The instructor was talking about the practice of asana and how it is crucial to maintain the energy in your body. Without proper relaxation your body is like a car running without a cooling system and it causes tension. Sometimes tension you don't even know about but mostly muscle tension, which I know all too well about in my shoulders and the bottom of my neck.  The tension in your body takes a lot of energy to create and hold in place. So all of your energy is being drained to create and maintain the tension. He was also talking about it seeping out of you, but I forgot why already (any yoga people out there?).

The reason I thought of you was, when the teacher was explaining that without proper relaxation, you cannot end suffering, especially when you don't understand that proper relaxation starts with the control of the mind to tell the body how and when to relax; and when you can 'let go' of your physical body, then you can let go of suffering. If you think too much about your physical body then you will suffer because it is one day going to expire and all you will think about is impeding death.
I feel so much love for you and send you light!  Yoga away!

thanks Megan

I have my doubts about whether there is a state of "No Suffering" or if there were, whether I would want to be there.  I do not say this because I love suffering, but because it seems so closely connected to what is essentially human.  Here is the famous passage from Genesis:

 

Now the serpent said, “Did God say, ‘You shall not eat from any tree in the garden’?”   The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden;  but God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden, nor shall you touch it, or you shall die.’ "  

But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not die;  for God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”   So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate; and she also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate.   Then the eyes of both were opened…

 

What Adam and Eve got for eating was self knowledge, shame, choice, and suffering.  They did not make a bad choice.  The most precious aspects of ourselves are what they got for eating.  (perhaps you disagree?)

 

There is needless, self-destructive suffering and there is suffering that is of the human condition.  I agree that my suffering about the death that is coming to get me is needless, given its inevitability, but it is not so easy to walk away from.  And I agree that Yoga and meditation are helpful tools in rearranging one’s inner landscape so that you and I have more options and a better sense of the permanent self that is underneath thoughts and feelings.

 

This is my Genesis

This is interesting Arnold.  Thank you for challenging me.  However, from my perspective, if we accept any level of suffering and give it an "excuse" as powerful as belonging to the human condition, then we allow it to destroy the natural state of goodness. The central core of being that we were brought into this world is pure potential for greatness.  Self-destructive suffering is suffering without understanding.  Since we did not create our own psychology it is suffering as a result of the memory of pain, which is the worse kind of all because this binds us to a past and memories that not only we weren't responsible for creating, but that we do not fully comprehend.  Without that comprehension we will continue to live in a cycle of suffering.  When we are taught to understand, articulate and evaluate the genesis of our suffering we are then armed with the greatest gift of dissolving suffering, the result of which is living in joy.

 
Now that I understand the genesis of my suffering the affliction is unbearable and I no longer can accept a life of fear, pain and suffering.  And most of all, I trust that I am strong enough to face and dissolve it and more importantly I deserve to live without suffering.  This was my Genesis: My entire life I've been told that it is not okay to be angry for being violated because I didn't deserve to not be violated. Which translates to: I didn't deserve to be respected for my needs, my voice, and my rights as a human being to be recognized and responded to. With the help of self-knowledge, therapy, yoga and meditation, the relationships here and a river full of tears, I am making a choice to use the power of self-knowledge to hold myself up from the weight of fear and shame and thus re-write my story. When I have finished re-writing my prelude in this life I will toddle my way into the light because for me living with suffering is no longer a viable option.      You say, "What Adam and Eve got for eating was self knowledge, shame, choice, and suffering.  They did not make a bad choice.  The most precious aspects of ourselves are what they got for eating."
I agree that the one of the most precious aspects of ourselves is self-knowledge. Yet, why assume that the shame that consumed them (as symbolized by the apple) as a self-destructive shame, that is, a life of suffering?  By feeling shamed by their choice of actions they suffered.  Yes, they now lost their eternity and feel from the grace of God (shame).  And they were destined to impermanence and pain and death.  But, that freedom you speak of is necessarily a freedom from suffering, because they have a choice now, and who says you can't chose to not suffer? :)  Wouldn't it have been so powerful if this story was interpreted differently and taught to children as a positive narrative of creative living by overcoming suffering? But, then it would not have come from a Judeo/Christian tradition, would it?  I'd like to reinterpret for myself as Adam and Eve learning that, with an independent mind and the taste of the fruit of life, they had the freedom to create their own reality, meet their own needs and those of their children's, to nurture and explore their creativity and cultivate compassion for all living beings.

 

Thank you for sharing,

Thank you for sharing, Megan.  I have learned from your post.

Noah's born into wandering

The two minor changes you made to the poem opened it up for me. 

I see it as the mind disconnected, but not dead - wandering, but not landing. Aware, but not alive with it's awareness.  Not alive with faith - struggling in that land between, wanting to dissolve into death, but wanting death to be life.  My mind wanders to water, to life, and to stone - but not the stone of death, the stone of the living - the stone put on the grave of the dead because the stone, unlike flowers, don't die. 

OuBenNing, Carmen

This is a text message, a telephone call, a snail mail, a telegram, a woman on a pony express - how are you both?

mind and death

 I see the "it" more clearly now.  It is the mind considering its options.  thanks.

Carmen

 I am thinking about you.   I am sitting beside you, just sitting.  No words have to pass.  I don't even need to know how you are - just that you are.   Hugs

"TRAVELS THROUGH STRANGE WOODS" AND OTHER MIND METAPHORS

 

evolution, light and the art of wing-rowing

 

he woke that morning feeling pretty good

not feeling the dying force of melancholy

that melancholy in its blindness feels;

he was thinking about his dream, the ferry

that the next day would carry him across

to martha's vineyard, and the two poems

he worked on the night before; he thought

how tight the new version of one was

and how clever the other, and probably

how not-so-great the poems really were

but who cares because he feels alive

for the first in a long time, and there's nothing

like feeling alive, like a bat wing-rowing

through gravity in stroked tautness into the air

and propulsive glory in downstroke

and upstroke in blind motion without

pondering in flight the meaning of life

like how the greater light disappears

and falls like a corpse in the galaxy

of day or night; and, though blind, searching

out the vast dark spaces of caves as if for light

in the glory of its flight, without wondering how

in its continuous resurrections, light could

in the depth of darkness, die out without

the force of dying; realization is just this.

i noah man who carved FUCK YOU into stone

and that FUCK YOU was directed at mind.

Born into wandering, yes
though I do not claim beginning.
Only that I am.  I ask.

Noah, your poem is so curious, so direct, so mysterious, so beautiful, and so full of wandering, that i think i'll just wander with it for a while.

 

BORN into wandering, yes. Ah, yes is yessing up your poem again. Noah, you said this was just sort of a meditation on the nature of mind, so i am glad that you managed to tie a bow of yes around the poem and make it a yes-gift to me. though i do not claim beginning. there is birth, but not beginning. there is birth, but not birth. i am born into wandering in the very sense of: Only that I am. I only know myself as wandering; this wandering is beginningless, endless, middleless... this wandering is, and I am wandering, and I just am... but I am not thinking about that. Hell, I'm not even wandering-- I just am. to mind, however, i am wandering. I ask, like a breath. I'm not asking anything in particular. I'm not asking a question. I ask. you want me to be asking something. I am not doing that. deal with it.

With the body mind says,

you ask to be dead. 

Ah! mind does not like this questionless asking, this placeless wandering, this mere being. mind claims, You are asking something: you ask to be dead. mind does not mean this as a compliment, or as a neutral statement of observation. no, mind thinks you ask to be dead, and it thinks you are wrong to do so.

With the body mind says,

you ask to be dead.  It thinks death
is stone. But it is stone
though it swarms like the flies.

here's the juicy bit. mind says, You ask to be dead. oh yeah? well FUCK YOU, mind. you think death is stone? you're the fucking stone, mind. not only are you the stone, but you're a fucking swarm of flies. Me? Only that I am. you call me a wanderer because to you it looks as though i am wandering, it looks like i am leading a life too tied in with death, too close to death: you think i'm asking to be annihilited. you're the wanderer, mind. you swarm like the flies.

In dreams, travels

 

through strange woods, between
granite houses, down abandoned
leafy streets skirting
high barbed-wire electric, fencing ash;
 

and overhears conversations
that vacillate between tongue
and no tongue; and is
the third, listening
 

to its couched voices lilting
through the dark.

shit, mind is all over the place. meanwhile, body is lying on the grass, asleep. dream: conversation between tongue and no tongue. body, subtle body, dream body. and there, listening: mind.

through the dark.  Secretly
I think, it longs to be dead. It waits
overcast because it does not know

its own becoming, does not yet hear
its witness speak: Oh,
that the dying dissolves its death
that the water, stone.

Secretly I think, it longs to be dead. fuck! that one hits hard! that one (forgive me)... that one kills! and i'm not just being silly, i'm being serious, too. that hurts like hell. of all the things for mind to long for... to be dead? but it thinks death is stone! yes, exactly. secretly it longs. but it waits overcast because it does not know. what a lovely word to use, 'overcast.' it is cast over the conversation between tongue and no tongue; it casts itself over the body, which it fears in its death-dance; it is cloudy like an overcast sky: it does not know its own becoming. mind. of all things for mind to be, mind: unconscious. unaware. mind does not know. fuck. teach, body. the body knows

 

Oh, that the dying dissolves its death

that the water, stone.

 

JAMES, YOUR POST TO NOAH MAKES ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE

 

But, isn’t that the point?  That in a new language of consciousness, the sensorial of body is taken up, that is, included but transcended by mind, in such a way, as to radicalize the way reality is understood.  Your language debunks the absolute and therefore speaks to a different way of “seeing.”  This is beautifully illustrated by Seagull’s gift to us in the advice column when juxtaposed against James’ post.  That they discuss two different topics is less important than what they emphasize.  The advice column emphasizes knowledge and behavior as important tools for couples who struggle with “understanding” each other.  From James’ perspective, understanding itself would be the focus and therefore meaning, not behavior, is emphasized.  Knowledge then takes the backseat to knowing, the interior aspect of relationship that is still so sorely understated, undervalued and malnourished in our culture.


So, what do I mean here by “a new language of consciousness?”  And why would James and Noah, for example be `poster (“young”) boys’ :) for this language?  I was going to entitle this post `The Meaning of Language and the Language of Meaning’ but the current one is the more provocative.  And I love being provocative.  I need to be provocative.  Provocation is from the Latin, provocare, “to call forth, challenge."  It also refers to the voice, from L. vox, "voice, sound, utterance, cry, call.” And from the voice comes speech, word, sentence, language and meaning.  “Meaning” means to point.  We use language to point, and to point to That which is beyond the pointing, ultimately beyond language itself.  And (being “readers” of) pointing is potentially uncomfortable by its very nature, even intolerable.  Yet, James is willing to step outside his… no… “our” comfort zone to hopefully make us more comfortable in our discomfort. 

 

Yes, he is a weird boy, but he’s made a decision to raze his father’s house of glass and shatter the barrier of his ancestral constraints.  As Wallace Stevens asks, “Who is my father in this world, in this house, at the spirit’s base?”  And Robert Bly, says, “Walking into the house of fathers means questions and entering into mysteries.”  These “mysteries” begin with the self seeking itself and the destruction and reconstruction necessary to find it.  And he and she (because this is not a gender but an energy dynamic) must go out into the world to interpret the mysteries, for there is where the mirrors of one’s being further reveal the larger shadows of ignorance in war, hatred, pollution and isolation.  And it is so pathologically male, for sure.  But, within those shards of glass are crystals refracting light and penetrating the shadows of ignorance.  And ignorance isn’t stupidity; it means “to ignore what is true.”  And it isn’t a thing, it is a failed activity of language, of meaning.  Ignorance fails to use language as a vessel of truth, of understanding.  It is ultimately the failure to understand the true nature of mind and the ultimate nature of reality, which are one and the same.   

 

And so I feel deeply sad when I hear Arnold say, “I have my doubts about whether there is a state of "No Suffering" or if there were, whether I would want to be there.”  I am sad, that is, if what he means by doubt is an utter refusal to challenge his beliefs about suffering.  And I ask with raised fist, “Arnold, why wouldn’t you want to be free of suffering?”  And, Dylan Thomas also shakes Arnold and implores, “Do not go gently into that good night.”  But, I get it too.  It wasn’t until I pulled the shards out of my ass that I was able to sit and truly find the threads of that mystery.  And I am still seeking, because not a day goes by when I don’t suffer.  But, not a day goes by when I am not filled with joy, as well (I am grateful to be alive so that I can cultivate compassion for all beings, without exception).  I know that suffering is unnecessary, because my father and mother’s suffering taught me that.  And my mother and father’s language, which was the language of loss.  And I am thrilled to say, we now have a new language, a “quantum” language (as Caterina calls it) that challenges suffering and its causes.  We’ve actually had it for 2600 years but only a rare few were willing to listen. 

 

How blessed we are, this new age of consciousness and the beings before us, with their new tools of understanding, ready to sing its glory.

 

 Nursery Rhyme

 

I burned my hand

and half my house

scorched the hands that made me.

 

Stepped on the crack

and had to lie

broke the back that raised me.

 

I lost my sight

for thirty years

but now I’m here to save me.

Because a certain suffering

Because a certain suffering is inextricably bound to a core aspect of being human.  Our lives would be so much smaller if Adam and Eve had behaved and not eaten.  We would all be blissful and dull.

A DAMN EVE , BUT SHE GIVES GREAT (EN)CORE

"Because a certain suffering is inextricably bound to a core aspect of being human.  Our lives would be so much smaller if Adam and Eve had behaved and not eaten.  We would all be blissful and dull."

 

Aint Misbehavin

 

I went to the Sistine Chapel

to search for the snake and the apple

And I finally found eve

with the apple up her sleeve

and the snake up her dress that was papal.         

OKAY, ON A SERIOUS NOT

"Because a certain suffering is inextricably bound to a core aspect of being human.  Our lives would be so much smaller if Adam and Eve had behaved and not eaten.  We would all be blissful and dull."

 

Arnold, I think you're pulling our leg.  I don't believe you believe this, really.  You're using the bible to inform your reality?  You're kidding, right?  Adam and Eve is not only bad theology, it's a corrupt theology based on a patriarchal line of unreliable reasoning.  This is moralism at its most punitive.  I can appreciate its deep structure if interpreted, let's say, from Plotinous (who I recently posted).  According to Plotinous, the One (ie, God) does not stay pure because it gives birth to things less perfect than itself (ie, mind in the form of Adam and Eve), by virtue of a tendency to spread its own fullness.  Because this "mind" wants to be separate from the Source, the separateness itself makes it less perfect, which, in the Judeo/Christian tradition, is evil and sin.  So, to tie it up, on the one hand, the Many of manifestation arises from the One is POTENTIALLY good, because there is some natural overflowing of fullness, but, on the other hand, it is inherently "bad" (shame), since there is this tendency to separate from the One.

 

We can easily poke holes in this  unreliable cosmology, but the point is, these "myths" are constructed by human beings who  are trying to understand Nature, including the nature of suffering.  From a Buddhist perspective, for example, there is no room to accommodate the metaphysical worldview in a Creator or divine creation which represents an atemporal, eternal, absolute truth, basically because all things arise out of mere interaction between causes and conditions, all the up and all the way down.

 

Thus, from this perspective, in no way is it a "fact" that "suffering is inextricable bound to a core aspect of  being human."   It is a truth, however, and truths, by their very nature, are only part truths.  The other side of this story is that suffering  can be overcome, and I can prove it.   Here's my experiment.  Sit for  2 minutes or until you relax and still the mind, I mean really relax and still the mind.  There will be a point when the noise ceases, even if for only a moment.  That moment is freedom from suffering.  And so, if you can be free from suffering for one moment,  by extension and through  prolonged practice,  suffering can be permanently  alleviated.  

 

ONE MORE THOUGHT

 

I hope I didn’t come off too strongly, Arnold, but I was spoon fed on Judeo/Christian worldview perspectives and they were inextricably tied to rigid law and shame-- my shame.  And that’s not cool with me.  However, my involvement with Judeo/Christian beliefs and practices have also been a great gift to me precisely because of my need to test these truths and principles in order to move beyond them.  That they gave me no relief from suffering and less of a deep understanding of the nature of reality forced me to face my own existence in full view.  That they failed to adequately explain their involvement and, indeed (for Christianity), perpetration of violence through intolerance and persecution left me unable to reconcile what I have always felt to be betrayals to the spirit of religiosity and world peace.

  

But, aside from my personal battles with these perspectives, I also argue that philosophically they are weak, politically they are corrupt, and ethically they are fraught with contradiction and hypocrisy.  What’s left?  I’ve come closer to the mystical strains of Christianity and Judaism and have found they’re closer to Eastern teachings than they are to their own conventional teachings. 

 

With that said, let me elaborate a bit on what might be called a valid cognition as applied to spiritual (and deep psychological) thought.  As Dalai Lama states in his wonderful but not popular, `The Universe in a Single Atom,’ there is a fundamental inconsistency in theistic metaphysics.  According to the Dalai Lama, “the very endeavor of accounting for the origin of the universe in theistic terms is motivated by the principle of causality, yet—in the final analysis—theism is forced to reject this principle.  By positing an absolute beginning to the chain of causation, theists are implying that there can be something, at least one cause, which is itself outside the laws of causality.  This beginning, which is effectively the first cause, will itself be uncaused.  The first cause will have to be an eternal and absolute principle.  If so, how can one account for its capacity to produce things and events that are transient?  Dharmakitri argues that no causal efficacy can be accorded to such a permanent principle.  In essence, he is saying that the postulation of a first cause will have to be an arbitrary metaphysical hypothesis.  It cannot be proven…. 

 

From the Buddhist perspective, the idea that there is a single definite beginning is highly problematic.  If there were such an absolute beginning, logically speaking, this leaves only two options.  One is theism, which proposes that the universe is created by an intelligence that is totally transcendent and therefore outside the laws of cause and effect.  The second option is that the universe came into being from no cause at all.  Buddhism rejects both these options.  If the universe is created by a prior intelligence, the questions of ontological status of such an intelligence and what kind of reality it is remain.”

theology

Om, you say, “I was spoon fed on Judeo/Christian worldview perspectives and they were inextricably tied to rigid law and shame-- my shame.  And that’s not cool with me.”  
 

I have been thinking about your post for a couple of days.  I was surprised that what I wrote seemed to have pushed your buttons.
 

I do not disagree with your points.  Much hatred and aggression has been committed in the name of the Judeo/Christian texts, traditions, and deities.  But, and perhaps in part because of all of this, those texts and their imagery have a lot of resonance, especially when looked at with the frame of esoteric teaching. 

 

My only point about the Adam and Eve story is that it points out that there is a cost to being human and that cost came to us because of a choice that these two made.  I am not talking, obviously, about historical events.  The story is a metaphorical piece of cosmology.

 

It says that humans received certain kinds of suffering for having their eyes opened.  There is plenty of suffering in my life that is unproductive and inappropriate... it would be good to let go of this.  There is no need for me, or anyone else to suffer in these ways.  There is other suffering that is bound to some essential quality of humanness and especially to having one’s eyes open.
 

Your discussion about first causes seems off topic.  I am not asserting that the Genesis is about anything that can or cannot be proven.  If the cosmological framing of the Buddhist tradition seems more true and is more helpful to your life, that is good, but why are you attacking me if I choose to look elsewhere?

 

ARNOLD, RIGHT ON POINT

 

"Your discussion about first causes seems off topic.  I am not asserting that the Genesis is about anything that can or cannot be proven.  If the cosmological framing of the Buddhist tradition seems more true and is more helpful to your life, that is good, but why are you attacking me if I choose to look elsewhere?"

 

Arnold, thanks for pointing this out, you are absolutely correct and I apologize.  I  realized after  posting that I glossed over your main point.  It was the following statement that tickled me into a fist:

 

"Because a certain suffering is inextricably bound to a core aspect of being human.  Our lives would be so much smaller if Adam and Eve had behaved and not eaten.  We would all be blissful and dull."

 

There is a meaning and thought process in this statement that seems to romanticize suffering ("our lives would be so much smaller") and assert that not suffering "would be bissful and dull."   I should have asked you to clarify  this statement before  diving in.  It's a big assertion and has big ramifications for one's approach to existence, suffering and the human condition. 

 

Most important,  I don't want you to interpret challenging your belief or position as "attacking" you.  I saw myself as challenging an overriding belief (religious) system that I believe causes rather than alleviates suffering.

 

Let's continue, please.

Interesting, OM, about

Interesting, OM, about Judeo/Christian belief.  Growing up in Flushing and attending Sunday mass at St. Andrews Avellino Roman Catholic Church, when I was in my teens, I remember listening to some of the best sermons on the gospels I have ever heard.  They were not dogmatic or righteous.  This one priest, I forget his name, spoke of love and forgiveness, compassion and strength.  He always managed to weave it back to the example set by Jesus.  He was really inspiring.  I remember thinking, Wow, this guy knows what it means to be a Christian.

I always think back to this man and I can only imagine him being crushed by the full weight of the bureaucracy of the Church.  Somehow, this enlightened man was teaching his religion the way he understood it to be.  I always admired him for having the courage to do so.  In my mind, that is an example of faith.

Nico, I admire your priest

I admire your priest as well, is he still here in Queens?  Once in a while I get a real ping in my gut for a good old fashion service. I have a dear friend who's husband was a pastor that felt the same way. He dedicated his life to a small church in California and focused on helping the teenage population in a poor area reach their full potential with love and understanding.  Tragically he was killed in a car accident last April just as he was starting to really grew into himself and his own skin and touch his community. I wish he were alive today so that I can share all these great things I am learning. For the firsttime I could have held my side of the conversation and now it is too late. He was afriad to tell me that he sometimes felt that I was 'fake' that I was hiding from who I was.  His wife said to me, "Mike just gets frustrated when people feel like they have to put up such a front." If only he understood that that front was what has keep me alive all these years and that I am finally learning to chip away at the armour I've built so well.  It pains me that it is too late for him to know that I was only hiding because I was suffering.  Sometimes I just talk to him and share all these new thoughts in my head and imagine his huge grin across his face and my friend just shaking her head that the two people she loved so very much could both be so comapassionate and silly all at the sametime. 

 

I was also raised in a Roman Catholic Church and had a similar experience in my pre-teens the recreation brought in a young priest, named Father Tom, who always seemed to find a way to relate to the everyday suffering and pain we were experiencing and bring it not back to damnation for our sins but how Jesus would want to build community to foster love and compassion and heal each other and the community from the inside out. 

While sitting there listening to him, my eyes opened a little bit wider and peered out, allowing one small segment of my vision to see beyond the agony I lived with. I could relate to his words so much more than understanding how and when to sit, stand, sing, kneel and repeat like the rest of my community.   Somehow I still learned very little of the actual scripture but that wasn’t really what was important to me at the time. I just enjoyed hearing his voice and letting his words sink inside of me like a warm hug.  
I was over whelmed with these feelings and I feel into the spell of my first huge crush on our young priest who at the time was probably only 21. I really believed that he was talking directly to my pain and me and that he wrote those precious words to help me understand that it would get better. I once sent him a Christmas card that mocked the Catholic, rituals and the lost meaning of Christmas. To my sheer embarrassment he read it to the entire congregation on Christmas. I sat there so ecstatic that he had understood and heard what I had to say and so embarrassed that the whole congregation would know I had sent the card and that I had inappropriate feelings for him. 

When it was time for him to move to another congregation I was heartbroken. I learned that he had been brought in to grow our church community and make it more self-sufficient.  I thought about looking for him when I was getting married last summer but something kept me from reaching out. My brother sensed this and said to me one day, “Do you want me to find out where Father Tom is these days?”  I smiled and even blushed and said, “No, I think he has made his mark on my life and one gift in one lifetime is enough.”
 

Megan, I don't know whatever

Megan, I don't know whatever happened to that priest.  The church in that neighborhood has been in decline for years since the influx of Asians, mainly, Koreans has eroded the Roman Catholic base of Irish and Italian.  I think I last went to Church there seven or eight years ago.

I was always conflicted about the teachings of the Church, which can be so rigid and cold, and the great sermons I listened to.  Eventually, I guess, the conflict made me leave it all together.  Though I still carry the inspiration of those sermons.  Somehow, they are part of my core - a little plaster on the big wall that is me.

Now you got me interested in the life of Father Tom.  I would like to know what he is up to now and how he feels about the Church now that he is more seasoned.

me too

Nico, I wonder as well, especially with this nice weather it just seems to open up your mind a little wider. I wonder if he was able to hold onto the purity of his message and most of all his passion for his work and community.

 

I know just from my own experience when I graduated from college I really had all these great ideals and I wasn't sure where I was going but I thought for sure it was to make this world a better place in someway. Maybe that is how I ended up here to re-start my education and ground myself in my natural goodness again. ;)

MIND'S RETORT

 

And O, ye Fountains, Meadows, Hills, and Groves,

Forebode not any severing of our loves!

Yet in my heart of hearts I feel your might;

I only have relinquished one delight

To live beneath your more habitual sway.

I love the brooks which down their channels fret,

Even more than when I tripped lightly as they;

The innocent brightness of a new-born Day

                                  Is lovely yet;

The clouds that gather round the setting sun

Do take a sober colouring from an eye

That hath kept watch o'er man's mortality;

Another race hath been, and other palms are won.

Thanks to the human heart by which we live,

Thanks to its tenderness, its joys, and fears,

To me the meanest flower that blows can give

Thoughts that do often lie too deep for tears.

INFLUENCE OF DEMOCRACY ON THE FAMILY

It has been universally remarked that in our time the several members of a family stand upon an entirely new footing towards each other; that the distance which formerly separated a father from his sons has been lessened; and that paternal authority, if not destroyed, is at least impaired….

 

 

When men live more for the remembrance of what has been than for the care of what is, and when they are more given to attend to what their ancestors thought than to think themselves, the father is the natural and necessary tie between the past and the present, the link by which the ends of these two chains are connected. In aristocracies, then, the father is not only the civil head of the family, but the organ of its traditions, the expounder of its customs, the arbiter of its manners. He is listened to with deference, he is addressed with respect, and the love that is felt for him is always tempered with fear.

 

When the condition of society becomes democratic and men adopt as their general principle that it is good and lawful to judge of all things for oneself, using former points of belief not as a rule of faith, but simply as a means of information, the power which the opinions of a father exercise over those of his sons diminishes as well as his legal power.

 

Alexis, are you saying we

Alexis, are you saying we should kick the father to the curb?

Or are you just reaching forward in time and agreeing with Foucault about the embeddedness of power and knowledge in a patriachal society?

Thanks Caterina for understanding violation

Caterina, Thank you for your response, Responding to Violation, it really meant a lot to hear you validate my reaction to the realization of the language of my past. Some of the connections that you made really helped me break through some things that I was having a hard time handling.  I am so grateful that you helped me get there, so thank you. 

 

I’ve been thinking about how quiet you have been. Did you make it back to New York?  I am sure it is hard to land back in the city and leave your fleeting heart in Rome. Just remember that your boy with the tubes is just as much a part of you as Antonio; in fact he is you or else there wouldn’t have been something about him that you related to so well. He is right here in this busy, lonely city. Inside of you anytime you need him to be. All you have to do is breathe and he’ll breathe right back.  
 

adventures of an open heart

Ah Megan, you are so sweet to comprehend what I might be feeling right now.  I haven’t had much time to process all of the Roman adventures, to find where the experiences with K and M and the Testimonies and the work are finding their settling in me, because Yes, the boys are in me, Antonio is in me, Rome and all of my experiences are in me.  I haven’t had much time to let all of this settle … because about 4 hours into my 9 hour flight I met someone with whom I have spent the past four days exploring an intense and sudden intimacy. More on this later…

One thing I am clear about is that the story with K and M and the feelings that were generated for K and for M are so deeply personal.  They are in me still, reminders to keep my heart open (which is interesting, because that is what my new friend from this weekend said he felt he gained from our encounter, that is, the awareness that by remaining open and letting himself be his true self he feels loved).  It is clear to me also that what we experience from any relationship we are actually giving ourselves.  My new friend, like me, was able to find this recognition of a deeper heart space and openness because he was ready for it, he created it.  Could it be that I transmitted this energy, this consciousness, to him because he happened to meet me at a time that this awareness is awakening in me too?  He was drawn to me, as he said, because he sensed this "energy" from me, which must be because he was aligning with it already and so was able to see it, bring it out in our encounter, and nurture it for himself!  While I don't like to use the term "energy" myself (would prefer a more articulate language) I think that it serves to describe a whole set of qualities that are not yet articulate (though he was very articulate about what he saw and was telling me, I don't remember right now). AnyWho, I can only speak for my own experience and so focusing on those lights that are K and M I see.. compassion, reflection, our great need to be recognized (recognize our own goodness), and a very human and evolving process that needs only our honest questions and an open inclination to listen to the response from our hearts.

And now it is time to relax and let all of this settle.  I cherish being able to come here to reflect and share with you all.  What a wonderful form of friendship this blog is!

 

 

Saturday night

 

It’s Saturday night and my dancing shoes are in the closet.  My old dog is by my feet, letting out enough gas to fly me to the moon.  The rain came down the other night as if the world was crying.  It fell through the roof waking me with a drip, drip, drip, and turned into a shallow swimming pool in a big grey laundry basket.  It reminded me that, ah, yes, one must keep their house in order.  

 The day was beautiful – I went down to the waterfront where the gulls and ducks were dancing and fighting and diving for the breadcrumbs that a man was tossing into the water.  The air was so sweet. It was one of those days where spring is hiding and teasing, still far off somewhere, but not as far away as might think.   Even my miniature rose in the front yard showed some signs of waking up, but I whispered gently to it, to not be fooled.  Sleep a little longer for there is still a cold wind yet to come.

The night is still young so I don't know where I will find myself.  No old men are scheduled to come by or young ones for that matter.  But my toes are tapping just a little so anything can happen.

Emily, your voice hits me so

Emily, your voice hits me so deeply. The image of rain splashing down on you makes me want to weep myself. But in a good, cleansing, good cry way. I see in myself the rose in your yard. I am itching to get out, to move, to leave this place I'm in physically and mentally, and yet...I'm not quite ready. There is indeed a cold wind yet to come, and though I feel like the world will never get it over with, I know that when it's my turn to bloom I may not be as ready as I think I am now. How funny that you don't know me, and you certainly didn't write this thinking of me, and it's almost as if I dictated it to you. Though we are miles apart, you are sitting right next to me.

To Anonymous

What a beautiful  reply.  I was at my desking thinking how much I needed to reach out - an almost selfish thing really, in order to reconnect to the moment.   And then here you are giving so much back .  I am smiling and smiling because I am so happy to be alive and for so many years I couldn't really say that and mean it down to my toes.

 

I only wish

wish to say goodnight to those I love.  MY wish is that your evening dreams  lead you down the mystery of new roads, new directions, new discoveries, and new challenges to expand your morning light.

Om, What is the difference...

What is the difference between your values of Buddhist principles, the ones you sprinkle your posts and teach us with, and actually 'being' a Buddhist?

MEGAN, YOUR QUESTION

is a very good question, thank you.  And I think quite relevant to some of the points I hoped to convey about religion in general.  Buddhist philosophy is not the same as Buddhism for me.  Buddhism as a religion is not appealing to me for the same reason all religions are unappealing to me.  They have long histories and are reflections of the human being's struggle with her place in Nature or evolution.  Human beings are faced with the knowledge of their own death, and the terror that arises out of that fact stimulated a great need to understand and possibly overcome that awareness.  Religion was born out of that need.  It is an artifact of being human. 

 

And so, the intention of religion is valid, as far as I'm concerned, and many beautiful teachings and life-affirming values have been spawned out of the depths of that pure desire and need to create meaning (I read and have learned from many texts of different religions).   But the moment religion becomes organized in a way that serves political means and manipulates individuals through authoritarian practices and power structures, the spiritual seeking of religiosity collapses into dogmatic control.  The very freedom and autonomy required for deep seeking is crushed.  Ideas degenerate into beliefs and fear replaces desire. 

 

Though I find Buddhism the most benign religion (basically because it's non-theistic), in my experience with Buddhism I have found some of the same contaminating features that I have observed in other religions.   It's quite a delicate balance for sure.  I have known many religious people and practitioners of various religions who are rich, beautiful, soulful and much aligned with their religious beliefs.  But, personally, my disposition is such that following rules and roles in ways that religions dictate them (including Buddhism) feels confining and inauthentic to how I practice my faith.

I see, thank you

Thanks Om for your explanation. I almost asked you this question in a different way. To show me where you drew the line in the sand between the values you admire and actually practicing/following the Buddhist religion. You not only answered my question but also made me realize that it is not a line that you have drawn it is a circle. You have created a circle of faith with the elements and values that tie all religions you have experienced together. Your circle is all about faith and isn't that just what religion was supposed to be in the first place. I like this answer, I would like to sit with it and hold it close for a little while.  Your faith is centered around compassion; compassion and love towards all living beings, without exception.

 Beautiful, megan!  

 Beautiful, megan!

 

self naming

In religion I find the need to identify overrides the need to know, taking priority and placing, therefore, fear over openness. 

If we begin, instead, with opening, the constructs which generate fear and love and emotion, the ideas and notions that rattle through us like old tin cans blown across cement, striking the dumpster, hollow dins that rise before us like mountains and descend into us like sun rays piercing, that dance across our eyes like lonely arms graspy and reaching, all of these can be received and recognized as empty, oh the constructs, you know, yes, the ones you chose long ago to recognize and hold and bind your query, your secret images, your myths in private places, they loosen and what is present in you rises to the surface, what is really under the noise, and so when you bite, when you finally seek the name, the sweet juice of pathos is unleashed and drips down the back of your throat, or comes back up as the case may be, and there's movement and earthquakes by the Earth Mother and you are holding you all the time letting go (Father Sky embraces, in great compassion, flying into your own heart free to this moment as time expands and becomes space pulsating, inviting your naming).

Autonomy (Aunt O No! O My!) is scary scary scary and Awesome.

Auto-nomy, the self naming

 

 

Caterina, can you clarify

Caterina, Welcome back, so nice to hear from you . I am having a really hard time understanding this post. I can't really pull it apart enough to ask you to clarify one specific area. Can you explain this is in a different way?

BEING AND DECPHERING CATERINA

 

Megan, Caterina kills me, really.  She gives great synergy and thunking.  And always has the energy to take us all on a joy(ce) ride.  She’s so round, really, like a whale, and she shakes our boxes and forces us to quake, we’re all living inside her as she swallows us up.

 

As people we tend to live in a box

With silver chains and golden locks

But for some the boxes begin to break

They rattle and roil and shiver and shake

As bones give to growth and growth gives to make

As make gives rise to the forces at stake

That turn the pails into ocean floors

That transform the walls into open doors

That give birth to cells that give birth to snails

That give birth to the awesome beauty of whales.

I once lived in that box once lived in that pail

But I've sold the damn place now I'm living in whale!

 

“In religion I find the need to identify overrides the need to know, taking priority and placing, therefore, fear over openness.”

 

I take this to mean that our fear drives us more than the deeper desire that seeks knowing.  Knowing, if you think about it, is opening up to what is unknown, and that could be frightening.  But, our desire to know keeps pushing up against our fear, hallelujah.  Religion has the tendency, as I have also said, to harness and even intensify that fear, through, first, its anthropomorphizing the idea of God, and, second, by reifying the symbols of theology into spatial divisions of heaven and hell, and using these concrete symbols as threats of retribution from an angry authoritarian God who punishes those who disobey.

 

Now Caterina’s next sentence is a kind of flooging ‘round and ‘round the gerund-go-wheel of opening.  What she is challenging us to do is to use language to undermine (deconstruct) and dismantle the authoritarian language of religions “which generate fear and love and emotion, the ideas and notions that rattle through us like old tin cans blown across cement, striking the dumpster, hollow dins that rise before us like mountains and descend into us like sun rays piercing, that dance across our eyes like lonely arms graspy.”  It’s really quite brilliant if you close your eyes and visualize this roiling rolling of tin cans that irritate the shit out of us, if they only left it at that.  But also, the childish romanticizing of ideal objects, for example, God and heaven, as well, that “rise before us” and fuck with our fear by mixing it with the anxiety of desire, not the purer, deeper desire of love.  

“and reaching, all of these can be received and recognized as empty,

These flavorings of religion that spice and sicken are, in reality, empty, that is, they do not have inherent existence, and so are not as powerful as we make them out to be.  They become powerful by our believing they have an absolute, pre-given, independent, lawful existence, which is absolutely false.  These dogmas, belief systems are merely constructions of men who, over the millennia, have been terribly misguided (ironically, by their own fear). (“oh the constructs, you know, yes, the ones you chose long ago to recognize and hold and bind your query, your secret images, your myths in private places,”).

 

When we begin to dismantle these belief systems and realize just how unreliable they are, “they loosen and what is present in you rises to the surface, what is really under the noise.”  These exquisite now observation shifts from the collective WE of discourse to the “I” of analytic meditation.  Go into yourself, Caterina says, it is only there, or ultimately there where you will find the ultimate truth about the nature of reality and the unreliability of what religion has devolved into.  “Opium of the masses,” I believe it was Marx who shouted, and “God is dead,” pronounced the philosopher, Nietzsche.  This is what they meant.

 

And so, when you sit long enough and find silly enough minds who, like you, challenge themselves, each other, and the powers that be bad and be naughty, and be mean and cruel and egregiously wrong, you begin to feel free from the prisonhouse of thought you inherited from your ancestors and which got you in trouble.  Breaking down the boxes of your earlier belief systems in a kind of suffering closer to compassion or empathy, is like a sweeter fruit than even Eve bit into, and the whole history of that seeking from beginning myths through the higher logic of reason, and finally into an Integral spiritual language that transcends and includes earlier ways of knowing, is so succulent “so when you bite, when you finally seek the name, the sweet juice of pathos is unleashed and drips down the back of your throat, or comes back up as the case may be, and there's movement and earthquakes by the Earth Mother and you are holding you all the time letting go (Father Sky embraces, in great compassion, flying into your own heart free to this moment as time expands and becomes space pulsating, inviting your naming).”

 

And Caterina’s “name” is similar to the poet Walt Whitman’s name, in his great poem (I wish James was here right now to link this :) `Out of the Cradle Endlessly Rocking,’ “the word more delicious than any.”  Her name is, appropriately, “autonomy.”  Autonomy is the self seeking itself in the rise of eros realizing the One of emptiness (which really isn’t a One at all, but a fusion of interconnectedness) and descending in agape to the Many of manifestation.  It’s all included, Megan.  There is no other-worldy separate from this world.  It is what is called, nondual.  “If we can’t speak of real existence, we can’t speak of nonexistence either.” 

 

According to Caterina, autonomy means “self naming.” 

yeah, brother

 Yeah!

That's a beautiful reading taking me back and into the very meaning, and those constructs that we deconstruct can be anything, not just related to religion, but to anything at all.

What is it that religion often warns us against except knowing, challenging, opening to our own experience and finding our own understanding through relationships and life experience.  Within any particular religious group, I might find that the teaching wants me to exchange the language i would use to describe my experience with the religion's own terms and metaphors, and in so doing I invest in its validity and breadth through my own life seeking.  Invest in its validity, only apparently, because I must always leave out my own self-making, and must deny certain avenues of thinking to protect the sacred covenant/contract with a society or with my family who might cast me out if I voice my difference.  

I am so grateful to have friends and a family with whom I can share true voice, and if not my voice then my love.  

understanding naming

Thanks Om and Caterina, I understand better now. I love the momentum of this conversation but I must admit I am a little exhausted from all this new thinking.  I slept 12 hour last night and feel like I need another 2 nights of 12 hour sleep to let all these new concepts seep in. 

joyce rider

good joyce ride. your writings go well together. i like the way it starts out separate-- Om quoting, then responding to Caterina-- and then shifts into more of an interplay with Om's and Caterina's words flowing out of each other's, until the end when it returns to the separateness, but with a new thread linking between them. it's like making a big round conversation about the experience Caterina is speaking of. i think joyce'd like the ride, but he wouldn't write about you folks. too level-headed.

 

Om, your answer to Megan

Om,  I very much like your answer to Megan's question.  It speaks to me  how I practice my faith - which is growing even as I sit here and write . I first came in close contact with Buddhist ideas by way of hospice/ compassion and learning to be of service to others.   I just went right into the big questions of how to be of service to my clients at their dying if I could not understand how to be present with myself and my own relationship to death  But I found that as I explored this more and more  there was a place for me to explore all aspects of my life and how I interpret the world.  I had no idea when I took off for a five day retreat in California  many years ago ( never having meditated before) what was about to happen.  It literally tore  my defenses to the bone.  I am grateful that I had years of therapy behind me, but that still did not prepare me for the work it took to listen to the mind without judgement and to let it quiet.  It was the first time that I ever felt  (for only a second) like an ancient tree rooted to earth and reaching to heaven.

I thought your first answer to Arnold's remark about suffering ( and Adam and Eve) was different from  your usual voice- coming from a different place inside you.  I would, in a perfect, unblog world, have wanted to make you a cup of my dark Mayan chocolate with hot peppers and cinnamon and sat down with you by a roaring fire.  I wanted to ask, " Is something wrong?"  Your voice seemed to come from a dark tunnel, a storm somewhere, deep; perhaps a sand storm.

I took Arnold's remark about Eve and the apple ( and suffering) to mean not that we must suffer, but that our lives would be so meaningless without seeing the suffering of the world.  I think looking at suffering in the face (even our own) is  much less frightening that imagining it or pretending it does not exist.  Perhaps, I interpret it this way because I refuse to believe in a God that is vengeful and punishing. GO EVE!  She wanted the knowledge.  Screw God for thinking he could control her.  Faith is so very different than religion. But even if we can ease suffering in ourselves, there is still so much suffering in the world . No matter how at ease I am with the ground that I walk on, how joyful I feel, a glance away is often the sight of such dire pain in others that has to be acknowledged.  I think, if I am not mistaken, this is the point, we all share.

Perhaps, I am going to far here, but if I could turn back the clock and turn you into a boy, I have a strong desire to stroke your cheek.  I am so in love these days.  Thanks in part of all of you who are here with me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Exactly Emily, this is the point, we all share

Hi Emily, I think you are onto something very powerful here and relevant to our blog community when you say, “No matter how at ease I am with the ground that I walk on, how joyful I feel, a glance away is often the sight of such dire pain in others that has to be acknowledged.  I think, if I am not mistaken, this is the point, we all share.”

 

I’ve been glancing inside this week at some dire pain that I have been carrying around and letting rule me with fear for over 15 years. With the help of therapy and Caterina’s response the other day I think I finally found the conduit to release it yesterday.  And then today I was reading Sakyong Mipham and he says,

 

“Pain gives us firsthand experience by which to be kind and generous to others. It gives us direct access through our empathy to helping others. We can use pain to activate compassion. We’d like others not to experience pain, and we can extend ourselves to them.” He believes that when we contemplate on wanting all beings to be free of pain, “Our direct experience of pain only makes our wish more potent. It may even decrease our pain, because it increases our joy.”

 

To me this is what ties the web of this blog community together.  What makes us relate to each other so well and feel as if we’ve know each other for such a long time. We are all trying to come to terms with our own suffering and heal each others through understanding ourselves; through understanding each other. And it is such a beautiful thing!
 

Questions about suffering/compassion

Thanks for this Sakyong Mipham quote, Megan.  We talk about suffering and pain; I feel the suffering and pain of those around me, at times so helplessly and sadly.  I do believe that it may be possible, eventually, to alleviate suffering--but my knowledge of the pain of others, my desire to alleviate it, my sense of empathy and compassion comes from the pain I have experienced. 

 

We want all beings to be free of suffering, free of pain--but this compassion is kindled by our own suffering, our own pain.  If suffering leads us to compassion and joy (and based on our experience here on the blog, it seems that is the case) than what do we really mean when we say we want to free all beings of pain?  (a question for all!)  It seems a paradox to me, but i think compassion is ignited by the very suffering it seeks to extinguish.   Do we really mean "alleviate suffering," or should we say: transform it into a higher state of awarness, bliss?  I do not think I can see pain and pleasure, suffering and peace, sadness and joy as oppositions--never.  So as I try to understand the nature of my compassion, I wonder what it means to desire the cessation the pain that has made this consciousness possible.  Perhaps we cannot, and must not end the pain of others (what right do we have!) but instead, as you say, heal each other through understanding, sharing this journey as best we can.

well, for one thing ;)

alleviate, v.

1. To make lighter, diminish the weight of.  

2. To lighten, or render more tolerable, or endurable; to relieve, mitigate.

aha, well thats much better.

aha, well thats much better.

NOAH, SOME THOUGHTS ON YOUR QUESTIONS

 

“I do believe that it may be possible, eventually, to alleviate suffering--but my knowledge of the pain of others, my desire to alleviate it, my sense of empathy and compassion come from the pain I have experienced. We want all beings to be free of suffering, free of pain--but this compassion is kindled by our own suffering, our own pain.” 

 

 Actually, Noah, I disagree with this statement.  Empathy and compassion are spawned out of a deep love, not suffering.  And I think understanding the difference is critical to how one proceeds in her thinking.  There are many people who have suffered and turned that suffering into violence against themselves and others.  According to Buddhism, existence is suffering.  Though I disagree with Arnold’s second statement, I do agree that “a certain suffering is inextricably bound to a core aspect of being human.”  And that aspect is existence itself.  But, the brilliance of Buddhism (and which distinguishes it from theistic models) is in its nondual understanding of existence; that is, existence is the illusory world of phenomena, of birth, suffering and death.  But, it is not the real or true nature of reality. 

 

The pain you experience(d) indeed informs you, but it is not who you are and so not your natural state of being.  How do you know your desire to alleviate pain comes from pain?  How do you know it doesn’t come from a deeper desire to love?  Yes, your experience of suffering, from a psychological perspective, helps you to better understand the suffering of others, but not without a loving relationship, nor a deeper awareness of the interconnectedness of all beings.

 

“If suffering leads us to compassion and joy …than what do we really mean when we say we want to free all beings of pain?” 

 

Again, this is a basic fallacy.  I do not believe that “suffering leads us to compassion and joy,” but what I mean when I say I want to free all beings of pain, is exactly that; the practice of bringing all beings into one’s prayers or mantras or thoughts is the recognition of the fundamental interconnectedness of all beings, that there is no inherent separation.  This recognition or awareness is the key to freeing oneself of suffering.  But, it cannot be “learned,” it must be directly experienced.  There is no other way.  And this realization can only come from an enduring meditation practice and contemplative practice.  Not even therapy will alleviate suffering; at best, it will teach you how to suffer, and that’s beautiful, too. 

 

“Do we really mean "alleviate suffering," or should we say: transform it into a higher state of awareness, bliss?”

 

Transformation, at its highest levels of awareness, is the alleviation of suffering.  There is no partial suffering or partial joy.  It is a process by its very nature, a process of transformation.  So, we must mean alleviate.  Realization is just this.  “Nirvana” translates as “blowing out” and refers to a total awareness of the ultimate nature of reality.  This could be accomplished in one lifetime.

 

“I do not think I can see pain and pleasure, suffering and peace, sadness and joy as oppositions--never.” 

 

If I read this correctly, it seems as if you’re attached to these emotions (the “never” gives it away J, and I think that’s the point.  It is the very (psychological) attachment that perpetuates the beliefs that these emotions generate and which causes suffering. 

 

“So as I try to understand the nature of my compassion, I wonder what it means to desire the cessation the pain that has made this consciousness possible.  Perhaps we cannot, and must not end the pain of others (what right do we have!) but instead, as you say, heal each other through understanding, sharing this journey as best we can.”

 

Perhaps we can and must end the pain of others, it is our right and responsibility, beginning with ourselves.

never

this post is awesome. i mean that in both the old school sense, and the newer (less powerful) sense. i am very grateful for this post, and for all of the conditions that allowed for it to arise and open up to my consciousness. hell, i'm even glad the pats lost at this point, if that's what it took to get me this post. i'm glad Noah wrote his post, and i'm glad Arnold and Emily and Megan and Nico wrote all theirs (and glad for Om's messiness!) i'm glad i stayed out of things tonight, and i'm glad i grew up in Whitestone. what i love about Noah's 'never' is the way it draws the line; the way it shuts the window, closes the curtains, and folds its own arms. i love the challenge it (and this post) forces upon Noah, and, consequently, upon all of us who find ourselves attached in a similar way. it is a very big challenge, and it is a very important challenge. and i take it very seriously. and, you know, it's all a big circle anyway-- all the most beautiful are round, right? so i'm okay with 'never' -- especially in this conversation -- because right in the middle of 'never' is eve, and she keeps giving me all the juiciest sins, so i'll stick with her through thick, sin, and thin; but i'll have to keep an eye out, because i think i'm getting attached.

Attached I am

and right you are, Om.  But I say NO, I am not ready to unattach myself from these emotions.  I do not believe that I am the risings and fallings of sadness and joy, of pain and pleasure, etc etc and I know that they cause me suffering.  But I love them none the less; I want the perspective and stillness and peace of meditation, I want to be awake and present, but I am also totally enamored with these feelings.  From an intellectual standpoint, I can work with all of this, severing the attachment, freeing ourselves from suffering, etc.  And I am full of love, full of compassion, but I am also full of sadness and full of pain and want and desire and anger and frustration and I love it all, and I want it all, and I want to know it as deeply and wholly as possible.  That these can be transcended, seen for what they are, released into a state of peace/bliss etc I do not doubt, but I know that it is a place I can only come to after so much experience; that for myself, i will only come to know your truth by first experiencing it all (the joy and the pain). 

This coming from a person who spent so many years not feeling (medicated); the revelation of this sensual, emotional life is ecstatic, in all its permutations.   I don't think that my infatuation with felt experience conflicts with the aim of Buddhist practice--in fact, I have found so far that my sitting has only deepened my experience of everything, lessening the clutter of my defensive thoughts.  Still, I am not sure now how to square these differing aims.   but I know it will take a whole lot of experience before that becomes clear to me completely.

just a few questions :)

i find this very very interesting, mister Noah. are you saying that becoming "unattached" means, for you, no longer feeling the feelings? also-- what are you rebelling against, if you are saying that intellectually telling yourself to "sever the attachment" will not actually result in any transcendence, but only direct experience, much more of which you recognize will be necessary as your process continues...? the reason i phrase this question as, 'what are you rebelling against?', is because you seem to me to be saying, No, I will not unlatch myself from my attachment to emotions (because I love feeling my emotions), which I can't do anyway, because it requires a lot of work and sitting, both of which I am doing, because they seem to help me feel my emotions even more deeply and clearly...

 

:P not sure if that was a fair or accurate (or clear) re-phrasing of your post, but i'm feeling lousy today and just re-awoke for the fourth time and finally must drag myself out of bed, so this is my way of bringing my mind back up to working speed. also, as i mentioned in my last post to Om, i'm glad to challenge you on this because i feel the same way you do, and reading it written out by someone else makes it look much clearer to me (you know how that works, how when you do something it feels totally natural, but if you recognize it in someone else you say, "Wait a minute...!") so thanks for shouting, and rebelling, and raising your fists!!! it's terribly important, and helpful, and honest.

James--is it a circle?

perhaps it is confusing because I am confused, and rather unclear in my own thoughts/feeling.  I will say this: I have identified the difference between letting my feelings (including the lousy ones) flow through me and holding on and identifying with them.  I feel angry or sad and I am learning to say, 'I feel this and it is ok.  i am not my feeling, but this feeling is speaking to me and revealing something to me'  Its just this big flow of feeling, ups and downs, expanding and contracting.  I obviously prefer the ups, in fact I LOVE them--but the downs, I LOVE them too, I love sadness (in small doses) almost as much as I love Joy (in big doses).  The letting go to means no more depression, it means I can really give in to the vital and beautiful transience of everything passing through me.  Its so full of joy and sorrow and how can I select one, for they need eachother to be whole.  To me, it is just the feeling of being alive and I love it, I love it--and when it causes me to suffer, it hurts, but it still feels.  And love is inside of all of it (when I am paying attention!).  So I guess i really don't understand.  I am attached to this flow of feeing (my life) and i want it. 

 

To my experience, alleviating the suffering of attachment means letting go of specific moments, specific feelings, specific people, letting it all just flow.  And I know that one day, hell even now, I say: and so what of it?  What is next?  Am I anything but a reed humming in these currents of feeling?  What does one do?  Well, as Om and so many others have said, one sits.  And so I do, and I will and I hope one day to make something of it, but perhaps it will be enough to learn to love and be that love as utterly as I can.  In fact, I truly believe that it is the way, that clarity is in the quiet of that breath.  

 

To my experience, finally, what we say about alleviating suffering, about learning to release ourselves from attachments are really just things we say, as we try to gesture towards something much more inexpressible.  I feel that I am just realizing this now, in the last few weeks:  the words and ideas mean nothing to me unless they resonate with the song of my living.  I so often feel that there really is nothing to be said.   I just cannot think my way to truth, to presence, to awake!  I know I am not really making any kind of argument against anything, and I don't want to be.  I do not doubt my attachment, but i do not reject it.  I want to follow this Buddhist inspired path to wherever it leads, but I cannot accept (with the whole of me) anything that I have not experienced. 

 

And what is this language that has become my life, which keeps pointing me back into myself, back to the start, back and back and around and around, elusive!, seductive!, a riddle, and then yes here I am again, here I am not.  That mystery is what keeps me writing.

 

So I guess I don't really mean rebellion.  To me it is a fierce reminder that the paths we take must be our own; that they are terrifying because they are wildly free, that we can be shown the door but must Step Out on our own, that we must be our own teachers.  Maybe this doesn't make any sense.  If I raise my fists, it is because I have a strong desire to refresh and renew this language, to keep it vital and mysterious--to keep questioning!  

 

I don't claim that any of this is logically coherent.  As you see, I am a frustrated and conflicted fellow.  It is causing me to suffer and it is making me want.  But I love you all so much.

 

 

 

Feelings, love me

 

I agree with Om that compassion is born of love.  I think it grows from love, grows from the understanding of suffering, and translates the suffering of others into a personal language that then allows us to move out from our own small worlds.   I think too, that when you love, when you suffer, you wish or hope that the suffering of others can be lessened as you understand what their suffering might be.   With my residents I do not wish that I can alleviate all their suffering because I can not, but I do know I can alleviate some suffering by helping to create moments of joy.  The suffering is there, but recedes to allow the joy to surface.  In that one moment of joy, all suffering ceases.  It does not mean it will not present itself again.  But what more can we want, if not a moment?. 

 

Ah, emotions and attachment.  I think of all emotions as a part of me; no one or the other owns me.  To me that is what it means to be free.  I still feel them but no one or the other defines me.  I live them all.   In a way, I think being unattached to emotions as being accepting of them all. It is to experience the full range of feelings as they come up, to greet them, to know them, and ride them across the plains. It does not mean that you have to give them up, as if they shouldn’t exist.  You have to draw the distinction of when the feelings that arise are from old patterns of seeing, when they are not of use to you in your life any more.  I too, was so frightened of not feeling ( after feeling so much that I thought I would go crazy).  I got confused and began to think that if I did not feel everything in an extreme state than I was not really alive

 

Yesterday, when I was asking Om, if he would love me if I got angry or challenged him more, it began as play, but came with an element of complete seriousness.   I want all of you to love me.  I want all of you to see me at my best, a compassionate earth mother, a caring, funny woman who has some wisdom.  Love me.  Love me.  And yes, how I present myself here is true (one truth) – but this is not all of me, there are other aspects that I show at times, my uncertainty about my understanding of your words, my doubts about my own education, my doubts that I am not mining my thoughts as deeply as I can, or that not realizing I am still full self deceptions that someone needs to be reflected back at me. You have not known my anger, of my rage, because I sit with it first before I speak (at least most of the time).  But there are lines.  I wish to be, but I am not boundary less.  I find myself insecure or filled with judgments, or bound with self hatred.  When I bump against them I have my tantrums – Damn, Om loves Arnold more than me, or I am too old and my thoughts are not relevant.  Or I am mad because no one is paying attention to me or I feel empty because I have nothing to say...  But these are my walls; this is why I must push from the boundaries.   See me.  See me.  See the scars sliced across my torso from surgeries.  See me lying on the floor of a grocery store after a panic attack – see it all, because whatever I say today, whoever I am and still becoming is born of those moments.  I am not attached to those moments, but they still tell part of my story. Those moments were given wings and they come and go with the seasons.

 

My brain is tired and I can not proof read this one more time.  Whatever doesn’t make sense, give it some….. because there is a great collective consciousness out here....

JESUS, EMILY YOU'RE COMPLICATING THINGS

Aside from your radiance and wisdom and awesome Mayan Chocolate, you're all over the place.  I suggest you take one sock off at a time and, in a quiet, slow and methodical fashion, wash it under lukewarm water, as if in a kind of ritual, like prayer, and really focus on that sock until it no longer smells, until the heart of it is purified in the love that you are.

 

And while you're doing that, I will continue to pull the shards of glass out of my ass from my father's house so I could further my sitting.  Come on, admit it, it doesn't get better than this.

Om...

I realized that I don't know what you mean by: Jesus, Emily You're Complicating Things.  I figure you'll either explain it or it's a riddle.  I thought it qutie simple.  Was I quilting again?

EMILY, OR EM IF IT'S OKAY WITH NICO

I was just being silly.  Don't mind me.  You couldn't complicate things even if you put your socks on backwards. :0=<

OH, EMILY, ONE MORE THING,

I do love Arnold more.

Om

Arnold will be right over to your house.

oh Om, one more thing

It doesn't get any better than this.   There I admit it.

HOW TO SQUARE THESE DIFFERENT AIMS

Okay, Noah, I'm going to give you pointing instructions.  First, get some of Emily's Hot Mayan Chocolate.  Then, sit, as if under a Bodhi tree.  Now, close your eyes and imagine Emily in front of you yelling, all kinds of obscenities, pounding her fists, taking away your chocolate and then taking off her socks so smelly her feet fill the room.

 

Not even Buddha was so challenged, but if you get through it, you're squared, and your attachment and suffering will be not only alleviated, but eradicated. 

 

But, then there's one more step.  Imagine yourself with Adam and Eve in a garden, naked of course, and having a threesome.  Not even God could handle that.  But, again, if you get through it, and without Adam ribbing you, you will be free to build an Ark and sail all over the world helping others construct blogs of love. 

 

Your mission will be complete.

 

As always, should you or any of your posters be caught or killed, the Secretary will disavow any knowledge of your actions. This post will self-destruct in five seconds. Good luck, Noah.

 

 

I Think I Understand

Not even God could handle that.

 But Om, why not?  I thought God was a big fat penis.

 

OH YES, NOAH, YES SHE IS

and She is round, too, oh so round I could wrap my graspy arms around her.  And I follow her roundness as if I were a bird:

 

 

my path is that of a bird

as his wings create cincture and gird

as he lifts into sky

i watch with my eye

but i can't fly so i follow his turd

HAS ANYONE NOTICED

that laughter is round?

EMILY, EARTH MOTHER AND HOT CHOCOLATE GODDESS

"I would, in a perfect, unblog world, have wanted to make you a cup of my dark Mayan chocolate with hot peppers and cinnamon and sat down with you by a roaring fire.  I wanted to ask, " Is something wrong?"  Your voice seemed to come from a dark tunnel, a storm somewhere, deep; perhaps a sand storm."

 

LOL! No matter what fire comes from this dragon's mouth, it's all out of love, these fists and all.  Don't let a little flare once in a while fool you.  :)))))))))))))))))

 

Right Arnold?  How about those Giants?

EMILY, REGARDING MY TORCH THROWING

"I took Arnold's remark about Eve and the apple ( and suffering) to mean not that we must suffer, but that our lives would be so meaningless without seeing the suffering of the world."

If you read my last two posts to Arnold (ARNOLD, RIGHT ON POINT AND ONE MORE THOUGHT) I explained where I veered off.  I think if Arnold shared his statement as I read yours above i might not have had the same reaction.  And, then we would have missed me getting messy, which is important too.  What i love about Arnold is that he's willing to put himself out there even if it gets messy.  The truth, or better yet, the heart of the matter is that intimacy is messy.  If we don't get our hands dirty (or pie in the face :), we're really not pushing intimacy far enough.  I obviously felt close and safe enough with Arnold to throw it at him.  And I hope he continues to throw it back at me. I really love that guy.

 

By the way, throw a little cognac in that Mayan chocolate, will you?

 

Om...

I am yellling at you right now, all kinds of obscenities, getting very messy, pounding my fists, taking away your chocolate and taking off my socks so my smelly feet fill the room.  Now, will you love me too?

WILL I LOVE YOU, TOO?

I just can't stop.

messiness and mending

this discussion is a pleasure to read; i'm sorry i haven't been a part of it. i'd like to be. this afternoon i was jamming as much reading in as i could before the sun went down (boy, what a lovely day it was in new york today), and then, you know, the big game. super sunday-- and in two days we'll have a super tuesday. but what does that make the monday that comes in between? anyway-- i hope you guys all keep it up, and then i'll sneak my way back in. you've covered a lot of ground today. i like all the questioning and answering. and i especially like the messiness. i love messiness. i mean-- i hate messiness, it scares the shit out of me. but that's why i love it so much. every time i get messy and fear that the walls of humiliation are going to come crashing down upon me, i come out the other side alive and in tact (reminiscent of my post it's not elves exactly, my favorite post of mine from this here blog), and suddenly i realize that that was fun! well, not aways. sometimes it's humiliating, after all. but then when i transform the past it becomes fun :P nowadays when i recall times when i was humiliated i embrace them joyfully. well, not all of them. i'm still ashamed of some of them. but hey-- gotta start somewhere. good fences make good neighbors.

A WORD BY ANY OTHER FEAR

Afterwards, I say to myself, all I ask is for my intimate relationships to be real and true, where real means embracing each other's reality, and true meaning being true to each other's words.  But, there's that tricky part again-- words.  People don't seem to know how to use words or, at best, the words are somehow disconnected from their inner states, like some kind of road block on a highway, or like heaven never really making its way down to earth; or words don't come out, like a watering hose that has a ball in it;  and I don't really understand it, though I really understand it; and it kills me that I spend my entire existence trying to understand that in the beginning was the Word and the Word is with God and the Word is God; but God, though being All and Everything, somehow forgot to be All and Everything because He left out the meaning when He gave out the words.  And I'm frightened because I realize that you, the other, any person I try to create intimacy with, cannot see more in me than you could see in yourself and my fear is that you cannot see yourself, which is nothing more than the illusions that compose mind, and the Love, Beauty, Good and Emptiness left when the illusions that compose mind are blown away, like snow off a walk when the wind gusts clear it.  And mind (with a small "m") is nothing more than its images regurgitated and recycled through memory; and if that memory is one of pain, then fear will form your vision because only the love of deep awareness can dissolve that fear and only feelings can reveal the mind's illusions, and perhaps the biggest illusion, that I can be known.

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